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FORUMS General Gear Talk Camera Vs. Camera
Thread started 08 May 2017 (Monday) 20:07
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CyberDyneSystems
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Post has been edited 5 days ago by CyberDyneSystems.
Dec 05, 2017 12:59 |  #616

ksbal wrote in post #18511223 (external link)
Not enough difference for me to care about... personally. Post processing can be the difference.

5D4 vs Fuji X-T2 (external link)

yes, the canon is better, no I don't think it is enough to get my panties in a wad about. you might see the difference as a pro photog. Joe Public can't, and doesn't give a rip. JMHO YMMV.


This is the classic blunder of internet forums IMHO, assuming that everyone, or the masses agrees with you.

If no one gave a rip, the 5D4 would not sell.

The same can be said about the flip side of this debate, if everyone cared, the other wouldn't sell.

Why is it so hard to just accept that people have different values, different needs, and different desires? (and sorry this is not directed at one person despite the quote, this is my reaction to the continued thread )

IMHO, this entire thread and most of the posts on all sides of the debate are simply people being flabbergasted that everyone does not have the same values as they do.

Well, i have relatives that don't celebrate thanksgiving? How weird is that?


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Wilt
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Post has been last edited 5 days ago by Wilt. 2 edits done in total.
Dec 05, 2017 13:36 |  #617

soeren wrote in post #18510880 (external link)
Hmm the online Dof calculator gives some different results
http://www.dofmaster.c​om/dofjs.html (external link)

Yes, DOF calculators make different assumptions about the CofC size. Most DOF calculators assume 'manufacturer standard', some (very few) assume 20/20 vision in the viewer, some assume the Zeiss formula


  • The DOFmaster that you linked assumed APS-C CofC of 0.019mm
  • The so-called 'Zeiss formula' is a supposed formula for computing a circle of confusion (CoC) criterion for depth of field (DoF) calculations.
    The formula is c=d/1730,
    where d is the diagonal measure of a camera format, film, sensor, or print, and c the maximum acceptable diameter of the circle of confusion, so Zeiss formula value of CofC is 0.01563
  • the common 'manufacturer standard'... "All the camera lens manufacturers in the world including Carl Zeiss have to adhere to the same principle and the international standard that is based upon it (0.03mm for the 35mm format), when producing their depth of field scales and tables." or an APS-C CofC of 0.0187mm



On the other hand, Zeiss gives the values d/1000 as the traditional standard and d/1500 as the modern standard. If d/1500, CofC is 0.0180

That there is lack of agreement about the DOF zone depth is not at all a surprise!

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bobbyz
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Post has been edited 5 days ago by bobbyz.
Dec 05, 2017 18:25 |  #618

ksbal wrote in post #18511223 (external link)
Not enough difference for me to care about... personally. Post processing can be the difference.

5D4 vs Fuji X-T2 (external link)

yes, the canon is better, no I don't think it is enough to get my panties in a wad about. you might see the difference as a pro photog. Joe Public can't, and doesn't give a rip. JMHO YMMV.

Don't you like the Micro-Contrast? Sorry couldn't help. I will see if someone at work has 5dmk4 so I don't have to rent one to test against my 5dmk3. I do agree every gen has somewhat better ISO performance but the gains are not that big. For some it is worth it, for some others it doesn't matter.


5dmk3, 35L, 85L II, 300mm f2.8 IS I, 400mm f5.6
Fuji XT-1, 14mm f2.8, 23mm f1.4, 35mm f1.4, 56mm f1.2, 90mm f2, 50-140mm f2.8

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bobbyz
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Post has been edited 5 days ago by bobbyz.
Dec 05, 2017 18:34 |  #619

Read few articles from Planet Neil and imaging-resource.

"High ISO performance is also excellent, as we'd expect from a full-frame Canon DSLR. However, we don't see a significant difference in higher ISO performance from the Mark III to the Mark IV. "

"Looking at these and images at other ISO settings, the pattern is expected and obvious: The 6D and 5D mk3 improved on the 5D mk2. The 6D and the 5D mark3, appear to be very similar. In turn, the 5D mk4 (in the images which are equalized), appear to be a touch better again than the 5D mk3 and 6D. "

Imaging-resource did say DR improved quite a bit with 5dmk4.


5dmk3, 35L, 85L II, 300mm f2.8 IS I, 400mm f5.6
Fuji XT-1, 14mm f2.8, 23mm f1.4, 35mm f1.4, 56mm f1.2, 90mm f2, 50-140mm f2.8

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davesrose
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Post has been edited 5 days ago by davesrose.
Dec 05, 2017 19:29 |  #620

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #18511274 (external link)
Well, i have relatives that don't celebrate thanksgiving? How weird is that?

Well since Thanksgiving is relatively young, that's not too weird. Do they celebrate Evacuation Day (external link) instead? It was a popular November 25th holiday before Lincoln proclaimed Thanksgiving as a holiday. IMO, Evacuation Day is more tangible since we know it really happened- the Pilgrims didn't get along with all Native American tribes in the area (who themselves didn't all get along). At least internet "flame" wars are limited to continued bandwidth with personal banter of what could possibly be best for everyone.;-)a


Canon 5D mk III , 7D mk II
EF 135mm 2.0L, EF 70-200mm 2.8L IS II, EF 24-70 2.8L II, EF 50mm 1.4, EF 100mm 2.8L Macro, EF 16-35mm 4L IS, Sigma 150-600mm C, 580EX, 600EX-RT, MeFoto Globetrotter tripod, grips, Black Rapid RS-7, CAMS plate and strap system, Lowepro Flipside 500 AW, and a few other things...
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AlanU
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Post has been edited 5 days ago by AlanU.
Dec 05, 2017 21:51 |  #621

bobbyz wrote in post #18511504 (external link)
Don't you like the Micro-Contrast? Sorry couldn't help. I will see if someone at work has 5dmk4 so I don't have to rent one to test against my 5dmk3. I do agree every gen has somewhat better ISO performance but the gains are not that big. For some it is worth it, for some others it doesn't matter.

Bobby in the years of shooting I think we all observe improvements in camera gear overall.

I think many photographers observe that if you stop down a zoom/prime lens it will gradually increase sharpness and image quality. I think an analogy I can try to relay is that if I shoot my 5dmk3 with 16-35 f/2.8mk2 wide open it looks "good". However if you stop down the lens to f/4 or even smaller the image quality overall improves. When I shoot my 5dmk4 with 16-35 f/2.8mk2 when I shoot wideopen it does appear there are improvements in sharpness almost like I've stopped down the lens but obviously the DOF of f/2.8. Call it added resolution perceived like it's been slightly hit with some unsharp mask giving some improvements I can see as more sharpness.

Shooting the 5dmk4 I would say you can appreciate cleaner images in low light. It's noticeable enough for me to easily justify the cost of the body and "perception" that I've upgraded all of my lenses to a certain degree. I would say my wallet cannot afford to buy another 5dmk4 to replace my 5dmk3.....but I sure wish I could. The difference I see is enough to wish for a fat wallet to dump more money in gear lust. AF focus is a step above my 5dmk3.

In the end I know my aging 16-35 f/2.8mk2 I can observe that the image quality does appear better mounted on my 5dmk4 compared to my Canon 80D 24MP crop sensor.

If you could borrow a 5dmk4 I'd say be open minded and observant. My observation has nothing to do with cash outlay or "justification". I genuinely saw a difference in IQ which I truly appreciate.


5Dmkiv |5Dmkiii | 80D | 24LmkII | 35mm f/2 IS | 85 mkII L | 100L | EF-S 10-22 | 16-35L mkII | 24-70 f/2.8L mkii| 70-200 f/2.8 ISL mkII| 600EX-RT x2 | 580 EX II x2 | Einstein's
Fuji X-T2 w/battery booster | 16mm f/1.4 | 56 f/1.2 | 10-24 f/4.0 | 55-200 | EF-X500

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EverydayGetaway
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Dec 06, 2017 00:03 |  #622

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #18511274 (external link)
This is the classic blunder of internet forums IMHO, assuming that everyone, or the masses agrees with you.

If no one gave a rip, the 5D4 would not sell.

The same can be said about the flip side of this debate, if everyone cared, the other wouldn't sell.

Why is it so hard to just accept that people have different values, different needs, and different desires? (and sorry this is not directed at one person despite the quote, this is my reaction to the continued thread )

IMHO, this entire thread and most of the posts on all sides of the debate are simply people being flabbergasted that everyone does not have the same values as they do.

Well, i have relatives that don't celebrate thanksgiving? How weird is that?

I definitely agree with you, and I'm definitely not flabbergasted by how people have different values/wants from their gear. I can respect when someone wants that extra little bit of shallow DOF, or that extra little bit of sharpness when viewed 1:1 (though these days that's barely even a factor anymore), or that extra bit of dynamic range, or that extra bit of high ISO ability for special needs (heck, that last one is why I bought an a7S in the first place)... but when people make outright claims of it being just "clearly" superior for X/Y/Z reason with absolutely no attempt to substantiate their claim, I wanna see the reasons for why they think that.

I personally think it's pretty telling when people can't or won't. And the issue I have with that is it leads newer photogs down a rabbit hole of gear chasing (speaking from experience). If you have an argument for why it's important, show the forum and let people make their own decision... that's kind of impossible to do when your reason is along the lines of "It's just better, trust me".

Just my $0.02 ;)


Fuji X-Pro2 // Fuji X-T1 // Fuji X-100T // XF 18mm f2 // XF 35mm f1.4 // XF 60mm f2.4 // Rokinon 12mm f2 // Rokinon 21mm f1.4 // XF 18-55mm f/2.8-4 // XF 55-200mm f3.5-4.8 // Rokinon 85mm f1.4 // Zhonghi Lensturbo ii // Various adapted MF lenses
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Phoenixkh
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Post has been edited 5 days ago by Phoenixkh.
Dec 06, 2017 02:15 |  #623

My own experience is anecdotal, I realize and others may have had very different experiences. When I finally assembled what I thought would be my birding combo for years to come, i.e., the 7D2 and 100-400L ii, I couldn't have been more pleased. I used that combination for 10 months and then my 7D2 started acting up. Long story short, I bought a 1D IV. Now, I was seeing something in the files that was better than anything I'd seen from my photographs before but I do know a bit about confirmation bias (years in the audiophile crowd) so I didn't make a big deal about it around the house.

I was really debating over keeping the 1D IV or the new 7D2 Canon sent me. I couldn't afford both at the time so I struggled with it for a few weeks, asking around POTN for advice, etc. The final decision was actually made by my wife who couldn't care less about gear. She was looking at some of the photographs I'd been taking, after I'd post processed them and said, "Wow.... what did you change?" She ended up seeing what I was seeing, not knowing what camera I was using. I know lots of people here have had both the 1D IV and the 7D2. Some have kept both, many have sold their 1D IV and kept the 7D2. I realize the 1D IV is not a full frame camera but I will say this, at ISO's at or less than 3200, it's hard for me to distinguish between the photographs from my 6Dc and the 1D IV. I have had the 1D IV for 2 years and the 6Dc for only a couple months but at this point, I only reach for the 6Dc if I know the ISO will have to be 6400 or greater and that the light will be limited.

I know the 80D is getting a lot of positive press from Canon users on POTN and evidently for good reason. However, I can still see a difference between the photographs from it and the 5D IV (and even the 5D3) as well as both 6D's, at least, based on the photos posted on POTN. I might add, not every photograph, but enough to give me pause. That being said, I agree that good enough is always good enough. I'm sure all crop cameras are not created equal, just like no two full frame camera models are the same.

I can only speak for myself: I wish Canon would come out with a new APS-H 1D and that I'd win the lottery so I could afford one. ;)


Kim (the male variety) Canon 1D IV | 6Dc | 16-35 f/4 IS | 24-105 f/4 IS |100L IS macro | 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II | 100-400Lii | 50 f/1.8 STM | Canon 1.4X III
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CyberDyneSystems
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Post has been edited 4 days ago by CyberDyneSystems.
Dec 06, 2017 10:12 |  #624

bobbyz wrote in post #18511509 (external link)
Read few articles from Planet Neil and imaging-resource.

"High ISO performance is also excellent, as we'd expect from a full-frame Canon DSLR. However, we don't see a significant difference in higher ISO performance from the Mark III to the Mark IV. "...

If you peruse the 5D4 image sample thread, many (most?) of the 5D4 owners there came from 5D3, myself included, and would find this assessment a little bit off the mark.

But this goes back a bit to the whole tunnel vision thing.

We have some people implying that no one could possibly enjoy a Fuji because it's not nearly as good as a 5D4,. (which is B.S. of course) ironically at the same time this forum is STUFFED with Nikon and Sony Exmor fans that are positively convinced that anyone shooting ANY Canon, 5D4, 1Dx included are living in the dark ages (pun intended) as they could never compete, nay exist in the same world as an exmor equipped camera, (despite those cameras own short comings)

Anyway, the only thing about this that I can say with personal experience and confidence is that the noise and DR improvements of the 5D4 with Canon's newest sensor tech vs. the 5D3 is a lot more significant for my own needs than that review would indicate.

And that despite the fact that some seem to feel that FF DSLR and Fuji exist in different worlds, I am happily shooting both :)


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John ­ Sheehy
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Dec 06, 2017 10:41 |  #625

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #18511883 (external link)
Anyway, the only thing about this that I can say with personal experience and confidence is that the noise and DR improvements of the 5D4 with Canon's newest sensor tech vs. the 5D3 is a lot more significant for my own needs than that review would indicate.

The 5D4 only scores a little bit better than the 5D3 at high ISOs on measurement websites, but that is only because they do not consider the character of noise. All 5D-series cameras before the 5D4 had chunkier, and more banded noise, and visually, those noises are much more antagonistic to image quality. The 6D started out with good character. The xxD series got good character slowly with 60D > 70D > 80D; the 7D2 had not only a full stop less high-ISO read noise than the 7D, but the character got better, too. These charts are not really showing how much better the newer cameras are in more demanding situations.




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bobbyz
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Dec 06, 2017 11:40 |  #626

AlanU wrote in post #18511608 (external link)
If you could borrow a 5dmk4 I'd say be open minded and observant. My observation has nothing to do with cash outlay or "justification". I genuinely saw a difference in IQ which I truly appreciate.

Will do so. Thanks.


5dmk3, 35L, 85L II, 300mm f2.8 IS I, 400mm f5.6
Fuji XT-1, 14mm f2.8, 23mm f1.4, 35mm f1.4, 56mm f1.2, 90mm f2, 50-140mm f2.8

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TeamSpeed
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Dec 06, 2017 14:12 |  #627

John Sheehy wrote in post #18511926 (external link)
The 5D4 only scores a little bit better than the 5D3 at high ISOs on measurement websites, but that is only because they do not consider the character of noise. All 5D-series cameras before the 5D4 had chunkier, and more banded noise, and visually, those noises are much more antagonistic to image quality. The 6D started out with good character. The xxD series got good character slowly with 60D > 70D > 80D; the 7D2 had not only a full stop less high-ISO read noise than the 7D, but the character got better, too. These charts are not really showing how much better the newer cameras are in more demanding situations.

Agreed, the noise characteristics are much more fine grained, do not pull out the detail that is there as much as prior bodies, and is easier to clean while still leaving behind good detail.

I really liked the 5D3, however the 5D4 just does everything better for me, from noise, to better AF, to more resolution, all playing a part in the final product.


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ksbal
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Post has been edited 3 days ago by ksbal.
Dec 07, 2017 11:10 |  #628

John Sheehy wrote in post #18511926 (external link)
The 5D4 only scores a little bit better than the 5D3 at high ISOs on measurement websites, but that is only because they do not consider the character of noise. All 5D-series cameras before the 5D4 had chunkier, and more banded noise, and visually, those noises are much more antagonistic to image quality. The 6D started out with good character. The xxD series got good character slowly with 60D > 70D > 80D; the 7D2 had not only a full stop less high-ISO read noise than the 7D, but the character got better, too. These charts are not really showing how much better the newer cameras are in more demanding situations.


^^Totally Agree. This is where it does matter, when 'saving' a shot, certainly the quality of the 5D4 is better, to our critical eyes. I'm the one editing the image, so it does matter... and how much vs the cost also matters to my pocket book ;-)a

But does it matter to 80% or more of the people that snap the shutter? probably not. The ability to use the camera correctly or to the edges of the sensor ability is the whole reason to spend the money for the better camera... and that ability is not in every person that holds a camera.


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TeamSpeed
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Dec 07, 2017 11:29 |  #629

I believe it matters to more than we might give credit to.I suspect many of us are creatures of habit, and regardless of whether we might use the capabilities of cameras that can be pushed to the extremes, doesn't mean we don't want the best money could buy so that the equipment never holds us back, we hold ourselves back. Sometimes there are those that want to grow into that gear over time.

This is true in many purchases, whether it is tech, vehicle, or even home. My sports car will go faster than I will allow it to go. Doesn't mean I will be happy with a slower car. I have those as well, and they don't make me as happy when I drive them.


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lijoec
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Dec 07, 2017 17:04 |  #630

TeamSpeed wrote in post #18512682 (external link)
I believe it matters to more than we might give credit to.I suspect many of us are creatures of habit, and regardless of whether we might use the capabilities of cameras that can be pushed to the extremes, doesn't mean we don't want the best money could buy so that the equipment never holds us back, we hold ourselves back. Sometimes there are those that want to grow into that gear over time.

This is true in many purchases, whether it is tech, vehicle, or even home. My sports car will go faster than I will allow it to go. Doesn't mean I will be happy with a slower car. I have those as well, and they don't make me as happy when I drive them.

Dead on from my POV!!! :lol::lol::lol:


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