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Thread started 15 Sep 2017 (Friday) 11:24
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Rangefinder digitals, options?

 
MalVeauX
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Joined Feb 2013
Florida
Sep 15, 2017 11:24 |  #1

Hey all,

I have this itch to have a smaller walk around camera. I love shooting my 5D classic and a small prime. However, I also often want something smaller even. My EOS-M is my smallest option with the pancake lens (22mm). It's fine for the most part, does the job. It's definitely the size I wish something else could be. My problem with it, is that it uses the LCD for everything and it cannot be used manually easily (have to electronically turn off autofocus, and the lens itself isn't good for MF, very poor MF control on the barrel). I have manual lenses (M42 mount) that I use on my 5D classic often, and those I really enjoy. For my general walk around stuff, I actually weirdly prefer manual focus and I like the wider angles from common focal lengths I use (28mm~58mm).

So I'm wondering, are there other smaller full frame options that are digital that have that range finder feel?

I can't spring on a $4k+ Leica, even though it's what I want (especially the monochrome one). But, can't do that.

I've looked at Fuji, but I don't like the idea of an EVF, I want optical. Fuji glass is very costly though, even if I got a small used body. I don't want to turn this into a costly system.

I've looked at Sony a bit. Not sure if the body sizes and styles are what I'm wanting though (again like the idea of optical viewfinder, not just EVF).

Ideally I'd like to be able to just continue using old inexpensive manual lenses; I just like them. I'm not looking to change systems entirely. Mainly just to compliment.

Any ideas for cameras I'm not considering or may have missed or not thought of?

Summary:

Rangefinder style body (small, compact, ideally full frame, but could do APS-C or APS-H)
Can be used without an LCD, EVF is ok, but prefer something that allows fast manual focus via optical viewfinder (I'm used to old viewfinders & manual focus)
Prefer a body that is happy with manual focus lenses
Prefer a body that can adapt M42 glass, or similar old lenses, and not require a $600+ lens to compliment the body

Ideas?

Fuji X100F (optical viewfinder) and X100T (optical viewfinder & image stabilization) for example really appeals to me. Just don't like the price. Maybe what I'm looking for doesn't exist?

Very best,


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yellowt2
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Sep 15, 2017 13:04 |  #2

Fuji and Leica are the only ones I know of with OVFs.
It sounds like an XPro is what you want; the XPro2 is quite expensive, but maybe a used XPro1?

I've been pretty happy with the EVF on my Sonys; you might try an A6X00 and see how the EVF looks/works in person. I find the focus peaking/magnification to be useful for manual focusing. I actually use an A6500 so my old manual focus lenses are now stabilized...




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airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
Joined May 2007
Oak Park, Illinois
Post has been edited 1 month ago by airfrogusmc.
Sep 15, 2017 13:25 |  #3

You said it so my advice would be take the $$$$ you are planning on spending now and save it. Original Leica MM bodies have come down as of late though they are still pricey no doubt. This could come down even more. I learned a hard lesson a long time ago, that if I had all the money I spent on settling I could have bought what i really wanted many times over. Before I bought my first digital Leica I have enough friends that have all different kinds of equipment so I spent some serious with Fuji and Leica M9. Though the fuji was much cheaper, I saved and went for the original MM. No regrets. I now have 4 Leica M bodies. Original MM, M-E, M 262 and the M 10. There is really nothing like a Leica M. Also there are some very good Zeiss glass choices that can get you started.




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Charlie
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Sep 15, 2017 14:15 |  #4

if you dont got money...... then you cant play. Just one of those things.

you can play with film.... many rangefinders not named leica, can be very affordable.

on the flip side, you can learn to like the EVF, many have trained themselves to use EVF over OVF. While I do love the feel of the rangefinder's OVF better than DSLR, I prefer EVF's at this point. Focus peaking is much more handy than aligning that is done on rangefinders. Just easier to nail off center stuff. Eye focus takes it to another league, focus on the eyeball for family snaps.... it doesnt get much better than that, simply compose and the camera picks out the closes eyeball.........


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kf095
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Canada, Ontario, Milton
Post has been last edited 1 month ago by kf095. 4 edits done in total.
Sep 15, 2017 14:55 |  #5

600$ is next to nothing these days. Even for used cameras and many lenses. Especially wide ones.

5Dc with 28 or with 24 O.M. Zuiko is going to be very close to (by weight) with digital Leica. I know because I have handled both. Leica is less bulk, but weight is about the same, if you use small MF lenses on 5Dc.

22mm on crop isn't really wide. I would check which third party ultra-wide and not brick like MF lens is available for EOS-M, get corresponding External VF and realize what for walkaround digital cameras will do it on auto as long as you know the exposure.

Like this lens https://www.bhphotovid​eo.com ..._m_12mm_f_2_0_ncs_c​s.html (external link)
and this viewfinder https://www.bhphotovid​eo.com ..._mm_Viewfinder_Blac​k.html (external link)
Lens doesn't have DOF scale, but it is not very necessary with wide lens like this. And VF is slightly narrower, but neat.

Personally, I solved this problem differently under low budget. I have Canon digital P&S with optical viewfinder and I trust its AF and AE. In return it does it well for me. It is tiny, costs me 20 CAD and it has all of the fun of OVF. Two AAA batteries lasts for two months. Because I have LCD turned off. Didn't Canon made up to recently more advanced P&S with OVF, like G series? They shouldn't be expensive now. G16 is 2013 model. And should works same way. AF, AE, LCD turned off.

And my other solution was Bessa T with 24mm lens and 24mm VF. It was very small kit. Costed be under $600 and film is fun for walkaround even more.
Some of my pictures from this kit:
https://www.flickr.com ...&text=Color%20Skopa​r%2024 (external link)

Even some 5$ film P&S have wide lens and will do it fun to walk around.
Cameras and photos in the link https://www.flickr.com ...esc&text=Nikon&view​_all=1 (external link)
Optical VF as good as it could gets. :)


Old Site (external link). M-E and ME blog (external link). Film Flickr (external link). my DigitaL and AnaLog Gear.

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MalVeauX
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"Looks rough and well used"
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Joined Feb 2013
Florida
Post has been edited 1 month ago by MalVeauX.
Sep 15, 2017 15:47 |  #6

Hrm,

The XPRO1 has a lot of what I'm looking for, and used ones are around $400 where I've just looked. That may be an option. $400 is totally doable for dabbling with a new camera system. Looks like I can adapt old glass to the Fuji X mount too with a basic adapter and use what I have. But, I also really like the idea of a small wide prime that has good long throw manual focus (though maybe a modern manual like a Rokinon would be more my speed).

I really really would want that 23mm F1.4 or the 16mm F1.4, but I'm definitely not paying those prices. That would be if I changed systems.

As for the Sony bodies, can't seem to find a good one that is cheap used. Everything is pretty much around $800+. I would be willing to try a focus peaking EVF with in-body stabilization. Just don't want to swap systems just yet.

It would be so much easier if I just wasn't hung up on the Rangefinder look/feel and manual lenses with a view finder. I just enjoy the "process" of shooting with them enough to care to see what's out there these days. I'm used to shooting Canon. I like to use my 5Dc and EOS-M for around the house, travel, walk around, with my kid, etc. But I really have always much more enjoyed my manual shooting with the 5Dc and an old prime than anything else. I've just never enjoyed autofocus for that sort of thing. I love autofocus for when I'm birding though... but that's different.

Hrm...

So Rokinon has a few interesting manual lenses that I'd be interested in that would go straight onto the Fuji mount without adapters with a 21mm F1.4 (manual focus, manual aperture for $385 new) and the 35mm F1.2 (also fully manual, $500ish).

Then again, a Fuji X100 with a 23mm F2 is $400 as a package used. I could totally dabble with something like that I suppose. Though I'd probably rather spend $400 and be able to try different lenses on it. Though ideally, I'd rather have one lens and it always be that. I really enjoy using 35mm FOV (full frame; 22mm on APS-C) for my "general" stuff. This could do that with a 23mm of several flavors. But I'd of course love to know how that Rok 21mm F1.4 feels on it, and it's not expensive.

Fuji XPRO1 with a Rokinon 21mm F1.4 maybe? That's about $800 roughly? Nevermind on the Rokinon 21mm. It's huge. Might as well use my 5Dc + 35 F2 IS instead there.
Or just a Fuji X100 with a 23mm F2 for a total of $400.
Or Fuji XPRO1 with a short slower lens like F2 or F2.8... preferably F2.
Really want something that has smooth manual focus around F2 though.

If I were swapping systems I'd just spring for the Leica. But, I'm not changing systems any time soon. But if I were, it would be a monochrome Leica hands down. I just can't do it right now. Maybe one day when its old.

Very best, :D


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CyberDyneSystems
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Post has been last edited 1 month ago by CyberDyneSystems. 2 edits done in total.
Sep 15, 2017 16:34 |  #7

Used Fuji X100,. ?
At least to get your toes wet at a lowish cost.

I was actually amazed to re-discover that the Oly "pen" line doesn't have any with an optical rangefinder. Somehow I misremembered that.
I guess the optional hot shoe mount ones aren't that practical.

The fuji glass is not that bad price wise if you buy used and don't need ultra fast apertures IMHO. The "kit" lens that most come with is L zoom quality.


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MalVeauX
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"Looks rough and well used"
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Florida
Sep 15, 2017 16:59 |  #8

I'm really considering the X100 for around $400ish, with the 23mm F2 lens attached to it.

I don't think I care about having flash on it. The purpose is to remove the bulk. I have plenty of lighting kit and L lenses for my 1D and 5D series Canons. Looking for just a classic, simple, rangefinder camera approach for fun days where I don't care and just like to handle a little camera.

Normally again I'd just use my EOS-M + 22mm F2 because it really does that job already. But, I really, really dislike the sluggish autofocus of the 22mm (I know some lenses are faster to AF and have tested mine, the 22mm is the slowest to focus lens it seems). Gem of a lens, but I just can't stand how slow the system is, and would rather manual focus, but that's really bad on the EOS-M system too. So considering just letting my EOS-M go and changing that out to a small rangefinder Fuji that has the same thing basically (APS-C and a 23mm F2 lens) but with a view finder, and no fussy slow weird mess.

Very best,


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Charlie
Guess What! I'm Pregnant!
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Post has been edited 1 month ago by Charlie.
Sep 15, 2017 17:05 |  #9

MalVeauX wrote in post #18453125 (external link)
Hrm,

The XPRO1 has a lot of what I'm looking for, and used ones are around $400 where I've just looked. That may be an option. $400 is totally doable for dabbling with a new camera system. Looks like I can adapt old glass to the Fuji X mount too with a basic adapter and use what I have. But, I also really like the idea of a small wide prime that has good long throw manual focus (though maybe a modern manual like a Rokinon would be more my speed).

I really really would want that 23mm F1.4 or the 16mm F1.4, but I'm definitely not paying those prices. That would be if I changed systems.

As for the Sony bodies, can't seem to find a good one that is cheap used. Everything is pretty much around $800+. I would be willing to try a focus peaking EVF with in-body stabilization. Just don't want to swap systems just yet.

It would be so much easier if I just wasn't hung up on the Rangefinder look/feel and manual lenses with a view finder. I just enjoy the "process" of shooting with them enough to care to see what's out there these days. I'm used to shooting Canon. I like to use my 5Dc and EOS-M for around the house, travel, walk around, with my kid, etc. But I really have always much more enjoyed my manual shooting with the 5Dc and an old prime than anything else. I've just never enjoyed autofocus for that sort of thing. I love autofocus for when I'm birding though... but that's different.

Hrm...

So Rokinon has a few interesting manual lenses that I'd be interested in that would go straight onto the Fuji mount without adapters with a 21mm F1.4 (manual focus, manual aperture for $385 new) and the 35mm F1.2 (also fully manual, $500ish).

Then again, a Fuji X100 with a 23mm F2 is $400 as a package used. I could totally dabble with something like that I suppose. Though I'd probably rather spend $400 and be able to try different lenses on it. Though ideally, I'd rather have one lens and it always be that. I really enjoy using 35mm FOV (full frame; 22mm on APS-C) for my "general" stuff. This could do that with a 23mm of several flavors. But I'd of course love to know how that Rok 21mm F1.4 feels on it, and it's not expensive.

Fuji XPRO1 with a Rokinon 21mm F1.4 maybe? That's about $800 roughly? Nevermind on the Rokinon 21mm. It's huge. Might as well use my 5Dc + 35 F2 IS instead there.
Or just a Fuji X100 with a 23mm F2 for a total of $400.
Or Fuji XPRO1 with a short slower lens like F2 or F2.8... preferably F2.
Really want something that has smooth manual focus around F2 though.

If I were swapping systems I'd just spring for the Leica. But, I'm not changing systems any time soon. But if I were, it would be a monochrome Leica hands down. I just can't do it right now. Maybe one day when its old.

Very best, :D

if you're a 50mm shooter

~150 on the used market sony FE 50, much better than any budget 50's I've tried. Smooth bokeh, accurate AF. For MF, sky's the limit, too many options to list.

if you're a 35mm shooter

options suddenly get really expensive. FE 35 f2.8 is $450 used, FE 35 f1.4 is $$$$.... however rokinon 35 f2.8 and 1.4 options about to hit the market. Used 35 f2.8's are around falling to $300 and will likely fall even further. voigtlander classic 35 f1.4's go for 400ish, but that look isnt for everyone. A very very vintage look, with heavy vignetting. 35mm is an expensive focal length in the sony world if you want fast optics and small.

Sony A7 body

595: http://www.fredmiranda​.com ...?keyword=sony,a7#14​176255 (external link) 1100 shutter

best thing about the A7 bodies is that add on a cheapo fotasy adapter, and cheap small lenses can be had for CHEAP. Add smooth reflections app, and you can get away with long exposures without filters ($10).

28 f2.8 cost me like $20-30? got a killer deal on the OM 24 f2.8 for $60, 35mm f2.8's are cheap, fd 50 f1.8 was around $20 when I got one, but I'de steer away from any 50 as sony's version is cheap enough and eye focus makes it worth it. 135 f2.8, small and nice. Nikon 105 f2.5, amazing portrait lens, colors are just so good, and the hint of glow...

you can even consider a few high level zooms, like the contax 35-70, one of the sharpest zooms on the market, new or old. This thing seriously hangs with the 24-70ii and a much smaller size. Minolta and canon 35-70's reportedly near as good.

oh yeah


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Charlie
Guess What! I'm Pregnant!
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Sep 15, 2017 17:24 |  #10

MalVeauX wrote in post #18453154 (external link)
I'm really considering the X100 for around $400ish, with the 23mm F2 lens attached to it.

I don't think I care about having flash on it. The purpose is to remove the bulk. I have plenty of lighting kit and L lenses for my 1D and 5D series Canons. Looking for just a classic, simple, rangefinder camera approach for fun days where I don't care and just like to handle a little camera.

Normally again I'd just use my EOS-M + 22mm F2 because it really does that job already. But, I really, really dislike the sluggish autofocus of the 22mm (I know some lenses are faster to AF and have tested mine, the 22mm is the slowest to focus lens it seems). Gem of a lens, but I just can't stand how slow the system is, and would rather manual focus, but that's really bad on the EOS-M system too. So considering just letting my EOS-M go and changing that out to a small rangefinder Fuji that has the same thing basically (APS-C and a 23mm F2 lens) but with a view finder, and no fussy slow weird mess.

Very best,

btw, there's nothing in the league of EOS-M in slowness, it's in a league of it's own, you really shouldnt judge other mirrorless cams based on the M. Even older Fuji's are much faster than the M, same with any sony that has PDAF. The EOS-M is quite unique when it comes to sluggishness. On the bright side, they still fetch for like 300 bucks or so with lens, the amount I paid for the kit.


Sony A7r - A7ii - A7rii - FE 12-24/4 - FE 24-240 - FE 35/2.8 - CV 35/1.7 - FE 50/1.8 - FE 85/1.8 - EF 135/1.8 Art - F 600/5.6 - CY 35-70, 100-300 - Astro Rok 14/2.8, 24/1.4

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MalVeauX
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Sep 15, 2017 17:30 |  #11

Thanks Charlie, yea, not looking to go that far. Looking for a basic rangefinder to carry around with a single, fast, wide lens. No external flash. No extras at all. Basic camera. Not looking to update or add a system. Just looking to have a more useful small mirrorless than my EOS-M & 22mm pancake. If Sony has something small with an optical viewfinder and a small cheap fast 20~24mm F2 prime, I'm listening. But if not, Fuji seems to have it. Sad that Canon can't just produce an EOS-M body with a rangefinder style optical viewfinder and a smooth manual focus 22mm F2 (or at least a better AF 22mm F2, that AF is just plain too slow).

$400ish for an X100 and 23mm F2 package is looking sweet. But still researching.

Very best,


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MalVeauX
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Florida
Sep 15, 2017 17:40 |  #12

Charlie wrote in post #18453163 (external link)
btw, there's nothing in the league of EOS-M in slowness, it's in a league of it's own, you really shouldnt judge other mirrorless cams based on the M. Even older Fuji's are much faster than the M, same with any sony that has PDAF. The EOS-M is quite unique when it comes to sluggishness. On the bright side, they still fetch for like 300 bucks or so with lens, the amount I paid for the kit.

It truly is slow. Well, the 22mm F2 STM lens is. The EOS-M itself, while still not super fast AF with whatever it uses in Live View (contrast? not phase detect right?), is not bad with a faster lens. The EF-S 18-55 IS STM with an adapter for example focuses fast on it. So does the 35mm F2 IS. Most lenses that already AF fast do well. But the 22mm F2 STM is just slow, whatever the mechanism is, it's slow and noisy (very much like the 24 STM, 40 STM & 50 STM, which are all slow and noisy; yet the 18-55 STM is fast and silent). Different STM motors I guess. Slow though. The 22mm F2 STM for me is too slow, I often watch it hunt for focus and slowly go in and out of focus trying to get it, if it's not already close to focus, and the moment is already passed, and it's missed. That is annoying. So I don't use it much for that purpose now. Frigg'n phone is faster. Though when the EOS-M hits with that 22mm, it hits well, and I enjoy it, very sharp, nice depth of field for the size of the system, great ISO handling, good size. Just annoyingly slow!

So yea I expect anything to be better in terms of AF speed. I hope.

Just want to maintain the small size, bigger sensor (APS-C, APS-H or even full frame), and the approximate FOV that comes in around 35mm to 28mm or so. I like wide and fast for my "do it all" and I do not like zooms in these ranges (bigger, slower). Again I normally just use my 5Dc + 35mm F2 IS. I like it. I often also use Takumar 28mm or 50mm primes for manual, and very often just use a Helios 58mm F2 for its weird bokeh patterns. I like that stuff. But, if I could get a smaller camera that does it, with the wider FOV, and a quieter shutter (less obvious I'm carrying a big camera) it would be nice. So the Fuji is looking good in that respect, since I can't get a $4k+ Leica.

Very best,


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Scatterbrained
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Sep 15, 2017 17:51 |  #13

I'm kinda curious, are you looking specifically for a rangerfinder form factor, or just something small and portable?


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Charlie
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Sep 15, 2017 17:55 |  #14

MalVeauX wrote in post #18453167 (external link)
Thanks Charlie, yea, not looking to go that far. Looking for a basic rangefinder to carry around with a single, fast, wide lens. No external flash. No extras at all. Basic camera. Not looking to update or add a system. Just looking to have a more useful small mirrorless than my EOS-M & 22mm pancake. If Sony has something small with an optical viewfinder and a small cheap fast 20~24mm F2 prime, I'm listening. But if not, Fuji seems to have it. Sad that Canon can't just produce an EOS-M body with a rangefinder style optical viewfinder and a smooth manual focus 22mm F2 (or at least a better AF 22mm F2, that AF is just plain too slow).

$400ish for an X100 and 23mm F2 package is looking sweet. But still researching.

Very best,

from my understanding, the stm lens isnt the issue, it's the camera (canon really doesnt have a slow stm lens). Every single lens made by sony is STM, and they have some very fast lenses. 35/55 are blazing fast.

I think the 22 stm may be one of the best 22mm's on the market, unfortunately, you really wont know it's fast until you shoot an M5, and the M5 is 700+, I'de never put that much money into an M5, that's just insanity.


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MalVeauX
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Florida
Sep 15, 2017 17:56 |  #15

Scatterbrained wrote in post #18453185 (external link)
I'm kinda curious, are you looking specifically for a rangerfinder form factor, or just something small and portable?

I really like range finder size and form.

But, that doesn't mean I'm not open to looking at something compact and small. Just as long as it keeps the larger sensor sizes and has good view finder ability (not just LCD), and a fairly wide/fast lens (35mm FOV around F2 is ideal for me). This is just for my laying around the house, walking in the park with the kid, out with the family, on vacation type thing where photography isn't my goal, my 5D/1D and stuff can do the job when I'm looking to do something purposeful there; this is just a casual simple small camera but not a cellphone.

Lord knows I've had my share of P&S's over the years in the 90's and early 2000's. Don't want a small sensor and a dinky zoom lens though.

Very best,


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