Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies. Read More.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
Thread started 28 Dec 2017 (Thursday) 17:12
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Managing huge TIF files

 
DaviSto
... sorry. I got carried away!
Avatar
1,904 posts
Gallery: 56 photos
Likes: 872
Joined Nov 2016
Location: Abuja Nigeria
     
Dec 28, 2017 17:12 |  #1

Apologies if this is dealt with elsewhere. I did look around but could not find anything up-to-date. Link me up, please, if I have missed the thread.

Checking out recently saved images, I was surprised (and alarmed) to find a good few shots that I had mildly post-processed in Photoshop with TIF file size well over 100Mb.

These are shots where I have done with processing ... they are 'final' images, and I still have the RAW original to work with if I ever want to come back to them.

I'm sure I should be able ... very easily and simply ... to massively reduce the space these files are taking up without any loss of quality. I have dug and dug again around the internet but not found anything that spells out straightforwardly just how to do this.


David.
Comment and (constructive) criticism always welcome.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
TooManyShots
Cream of the Crop
10,203 posts
Likes: 511
Joined Jan 2008
Location: NYC
     
Dec 28, 2017 17:21 |  #2
bannedPermanent ban

I deleted them. They are nothing more than files you exported from Raw. My final edited files are in PSD.


One Imaging Photography (external link) and my Flickr (external link)
Facebook (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DaviSto
THREAD ­ STARTER
... sorry. I got carried away!
Avatar
1,904 posts
Gallery: 56 photos
Likes: 872
Joined Nov 2016
Location: Abuja Nigeria
     
Dec 28, 2017 17:28 |  #3

TooManyShots wrote in post #18528212 (external link)
I deleted them. They are nothing more than files you exported from Raw. My final edited files are in PSD.

OK ... but I can't see/find any PSD files.

Advisory note: I don't really know that much (at all) about how Photoshop and Lightroom handle files as they are passed back and forth. I am building my understanding of the image editing capabilities of Photoshop but my understanding of image file management is zero at best.


David.
Comment and (constructive) criticism always welcome.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
CyberDyneSystems
Admin (type T-2000)
Avatar
48,205 posts
Gallery: 79 photos
Likes: 4351
Joined Apr 2003
Location: Rhode Island USA
Post edited 3 months ago by CyberDyneSystems. (2 edits in all)
     
Dec 28, 2017 17:45 |  #4

.PSD is pretty much the same as a TIFF file. It is in fact a tiff, with some proprietary adobe info built in as well. (potentially, lot's of it!)
In some cases that additional Adobe info CAN have some ability to reduce the overall resulting file size as compared to a similar tiff, but not by much. Sometimes it will have the opposite effect, as the tif simply won;t be able to contain the info in any way.

If the sizes of two otherwise comparable .tif and .psd are vastly different, it is usually because of one or two reasons.
1- we are comparing apples to oranges, ie: the .tif is 16 bit, the .psd isn't

2- The files have multiple layers. .tif layers will usually result in larger file sizes. All layers in a .tif are going to increase file size by order of magnitude. With .psd if I recall correctly the layer will only increase file size where the info is in fact different from the base layer. (I may be wrong about how this works)

Dave, you did not mention what camera/initial raw size you are dealing with? Over 100MB may be typical depending on what you start with.

My normal file size choice is as fallows.

for "flattened" single layer images, I use .tif
For multi-layers, channels, etc. I use .psd

If you are saving in tif, you won't have any .psd they are only there if you save that way.


GEAR LIST
CDS' HOT LINKS
Jake Hegnauer Photography (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DaviSto
THREAD ­ STARTER
... sorry. I got carried away!
Avatar
1,904 posts
Gallery: 56 photos
Likes: 872
Joined Nov 2016
Location: Abuja Nigeria
Post edited 3 months ago by DaviSto.
     
Dec 28, 2017 18:03 |  #5

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #18528232 (external link)
Dave, you did not mention what camera/initial raw size you are dealing with? Over 100MB may be typical depending on what you start with.

My normal file size choice is as fallows.

for "flattened" single layer images, I use .tif
For multi-layers, channels, etc. I use .psd

Take one example, the original RAW (CR2) file size is 32,447KB. After processing in PS, the file size (TIF) is 107,310KB.

I am all done with this file for now (and, probably, for ever ... except if she volunteers that I seem handsome ... an unlikely event, for which my retained CR2 would be enough to allow me to return her flattery) and I don't want to have to store anything more than a good quality JPEG.

In the past I worked mainly in Lightroom but I am using PS more and more and I have a growing number of these large TIFs that represent final (never to be edited again) images. They seem like a weed that could easily grow out of hand.


David.
Comment and (constructive) criticism always welcome.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
TooManyShots
Cream of the Crop
10,203 posts
Likes: 511
Joined Jan 2008
Location: NYC
     
Dec 28, 2017 18:42 |  #6
bannedPermanent ban

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #18528232 (external link)
.PSD is pretty much the same as a TIFF file. It is in fact a tiff, with some proprietary adobe info built in as well. (potentially, lot's of it!)
In some cases that additional Adobe info CAN have some ability to reduce the overall resulting file size as compared to a similar tiff, but not by much. Sometimes it will have the opposite effect, as the tif simply won;t be able to contain the info in any way.

If the sizes of two otherwise comparable .tif and .psd are vastly different, it is usually because of one or two reasons.
1- we are comparing apples to oranges, ie: the .tif is 16 bit, the .psd isn't

2- The files have multiple layers. .tif layers will usually result in larger file sizes. All layers in a .tif are going to increase file size by order of magnitude. With .psd if I recall correctly the layer will only increase file size where the info is in fact different from the base layer. (I may be wrong about how this works)

Dave, you did not mention what camera/initial raw size you are dealing with? Over 100MB may be typical depending on what you start with.

My normal file size choice is as fallows.

for "flattened" single layer images, I use .tif
For multi-layers, channels, etc. I use .psd

If you are saving in tif, you won't have any .psd they are only there if you save that way.


If you have duplicated or multiple layers of the same image, the size can be doubled or tripled. If you use layer masks instead, the size remains the same.


One Imaging Photography (external link) and my Flickr (external link)
Facebook (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
TooManyShots
Cream of the Crop
10,203 posts
Likes: 511
Joined Jan 2008
Location: NYC
     
Dec 28, 2017 18:45 |  #7
bannedPermanent ban

DaviSto wrote in post #18528237 (external link)
Take one example, the original RAW (CR2) file size is 32,447KB. After processing in PS, the file size (TIF) is 107,310KB.

I am all done with this file for now (and, probably, for ever ... except if she volunteers that I seem handsome ... an unlikely event, for which my retained CR2 would be enough to allow me to return her flattery) and I don't want to have to store anything more than a good quality JPEG.

In the past I worked mainly in Lightroom but I am using PS more and more and I have a growing number of these large TIFs that represent final (never to be edited again) images. They seem like a weed that could easily grow out of hand.

PSD is photoshop file format. You exported your raw files into tiff format. Then, you edit the tiff file in photoshop. Then, you save your final edit in PSD file format instead. So, the tiff file does its job and you can delete them.

Are you using Windows? If so, just let Windows Explorer searching for *.tif within your photo folders. Select all and delete them.


One Imaging Photography (external link) and my Flickr (external link)
Facebook (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DaviSto
THREAD ­ STARTER
... sorry. I got carried away!
Avatar
1,904 posts
Gallery: 56 photos
Likes: 872
Joined Nov 2016
Location: Abuja Nigeria
Post edited 3 months ago by DaviSto.
     
Dec 28, 2017 19:00 |  #8

TooManyShots wrote in post #18528256 (external link)
PSD is photoshop file format. You exported your raw files into tiff format. Then, you edit the tiff file in photoshop. Then, you save your final edit in PSD file format instead. So, the tiff file does its job and you can delete them.

Are you using Windows? If so, just let Windows Explorer searching for *.tif within your photo folders. Select all and delete them.

My work flow is quite simple. I begin in LR and make basic edits there. I then 'edit in' PS (using the default 'copy with LR adjustments' option) if I think this is required for a particular shot. After editing, I 'save' in PS and go back to LR and make final adjustments as required.

This leaves me with a 100MB plus TIF that I am really not much interested in keeping. What I would like to keep is a, say, 10MB jpeg that captures the final image ... and delete all the rest, except for the CR2 original.

EDIT: So I am not saving in PSD format, I guess. Is that important?


David.
Comment and (constructive) criticism always welcome.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
ThreeHounds
Senior Member
Avatar
688 posts
Gallery: 71 photos
Likes: 295
Joined Mar 2014
Location: Delray Beach, Fl USA
     
Dec 28, 2017 19:17 as a reply to  @ TooManyShots's post |  #9

But if you use apply image to layer masks, it gets larger yet. Also if you duplicate image layers and make them smart objects with smart filters applied, it grows more.
Clone stamp visible layers a couple of times in the editing process and you can build files approaching the 2 GB max file size pretty quickly.
I often need to merge editing process layers along the way to be able to save the file, and only have a step or 2 to redo if a change is requested.


5D MkIII | 7D | Bronica ETRS
EF 24-105 f/4 L | EF 85mm f/1.8 USM | EF 17-40 f/4 L | EF 70-300 f/4 L | 105 f/3.5 Zenzanon | Tamron SP90 f/2.8 Di Macro VC USM
flickr (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DaviSto
THREAD ­ STARTER
... sorry. I got carried away!
Avatar
1,904 posts
Gallery: 56 photos
Likes: 872
Joined Nov 2016
Location: Abuja Nigeria
     
Dec 28, 2017 19:24 as a reply to  @ ThreeHounds's post |  #10

I can see - based on only a toe in the water - how easy it is to build big files that use lots of storage.

I'm just looking for a quick and easy way to get rid of them ... most likely in LR ... without losing my edits.


David.
Comment and (constructive) criticism always welcome.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BigAl007
Cream of the Crop
7,625 posts
Gallery: 515 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 1418
Joined Dec 2010
Location: Repps cum Bastwick, Gt Yarmouth, Norfolk, UK.
Post edited 3 months ago by BigAl007.
     
Dec 28, 2017 19:24 |  #11

Personally I use PSD, not TIFF. One advantage that PSD has is that it is a compressed format by default, but using a lossless method of of compression, unlike JPEG. Using PSD is fine if you are only going to use Ps as your editing program. It is also possible to use compression with TIFF files too, and with TIFF you get several options, including JPEG if you really want. The most widely supported compression algorithm, and the one I would pick is LZW compression.

If you chose to keep all of the layers intact it is usual with both TIFF and PSD for the file to include and extra hidden layer, of the flattened image. This is done by using the maximise PSB option for PSD files, and is necessary when using other programs that understand PSD, including Lightroom. Lr doesn't do layers, and just uses the flattened layer. The extra layer is usually incorporated automatically in a TIFF when you have more than one layer.

Comparing the file size between a RAW file such as a CR2, and an uncompressed TIFF is never going to be an apples to apples comparison. The RAW file doesn't contain any encoded colour information, the RAW converter calculates the image colours based on knowing the colour response of the sensors RGGB Bayer Colour Filter Array. The sensor records a 14 bit value for every sensel location. At worse this may be stored as a full 16 bit value occupying two 8 bit bytes. When you convert to an RGB bitmap format like TIFF or PSD that gets converted to three values for each pixel, one red, one blue, and one green value. If this is saved as an 8 bit value of each colour you will need 3 bytes to store each pixel, so a 16 bit RAW will need only 2/3 the memory of an 8 bit RGB version. If you make the RGB values 16 bit, as you can with both TIFF and PSD, then you now need 6 bytes per pixel, rather than 2 for the RAW. This is for only a single layer image by the way. Additional layers of pixels will add the same amount of data again, although adjustment layers just save the info about the required adjustment, much like RAW edits are saved.

In addition for Canon CR2 files the image data is also compressed, again using a loss less compression system. I haven't looked at the specification, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that they used LZW, or a close variant of it.

Alan


My Flickr (external link)
My new Aviation images blog site (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
bpalermini
Goldmember
Avatar
1,194 posts
Gallery: 67 photos
Likes: 477
Joined Mar 2011
Location: Ashland, Oregon
     
Dec 28, 2017 19:40 |  #12

If you use the Edit-In command from LR you are (apparently) set to create and open a TIFF file of your selected file in Photoshop. If when you get done editing in PS you say SAVE, you will overwrite the TIFF file that LR created with the edited version.

You can also choose to SAVE AS, in photoshop, that will let you save your file in a variety of file formats including jpeg. That jpeg won't automatically be in your Lightroom catalog but it will be in the folder your original TIFF file came from. You could then delete the TIFF file and SYNC the folder to get the jpeg into your LR catalog. I should end up next to the raw file since it will have the same file name with a .jpg extension.

For my experiment my original RAW file was 30mb, the TIFF that Lightroom created was 212mb and the highest quality jpeg file I could make was 10mb.


Bob Palermini
1DX, 5DIV, 14 Rokinon, 16-35L II, 24-70L II, 100L, 70-200 IS 2.8L, 100-400L II, 400mm 2.8 IS II, 1.4xIII, 2xIII, 580EXII, YN560IV, RRS TVC23 + BH55, LRCC, Fuji X-E2, Fuji X30
My Web Site (external link) | My Sports Portfolio (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BigAl007
Cream of the Crop
7,625 posts
Gallery: 515 photos
Best ofs: 1
Likes: 1418
Joined Dec 2010
Location: Repps cum Bastwick, Gt Yarmouth, Norfolk, UK.
Post edited 3 months ago by BigAl007. (2 edits in all)
     
Dec 28, 2017 19:43 |  #13

DaviSto wrote in post #18528283 (external link)
I can see - based on only a toe in the water - how easy it is to build big files that use lots of storage.

I'm just looking for a quick and easy way to get rid of them ... most likely in LR ... without losing my edits.


Well probably the best way to do that is to flatten the image, convert to 8 bit and save a TIFF using LZW compression. This will give you a file that is about the size of a Q80 JPEG, but without any losses from the JPEG conversion.

Remember that if you save the image as a JPEG at maximum quality i.e Q100 or 12 in Ps, it will still suffer from some very small artifacts from the conversion to the JPEG format, without introducing any compression. So the JPEG will be the same size as an uncompressed 8 bit TIFF. In the LZW Tiff you will get out pixel values that exactly match the pixel values you put in. With all JPEG files you will see a very slight alteration of many pixel values, usually only in the order of a difference of ±1 or 2 in maybe only one colour channel of any pixel. Still it is not exactly what you put in.

If you go to Edit Preferences in Lr you can change how Lr tells Ps how to save your files. All you need to do is change it from 16 bit, which is the default, to 8 bit. I would also change it to either PSD, or to use LZW compression for the TIFF. One other thing that I would do is to change the colour space from ProPhotoRGB to sRGB, you should only ever use ProPhotoRGB when working in 16 bit. I would normally avoid AdobeRGB with 8 bit too. As well as this I would then do a flatten operation once I was sure that I had done all of my required edits. This will ensure that your final high quality image file is as small as a high quality JPEG.

If you need to save half way through an edit don't worry, you can save with the layers intact and then go back later. Then once you are finished later on you just need to flatten the image and save again, and at this point the image will save with just the once layer, and you are back down to the size of that JPEG.

Alan

PS If you do it this way you end up with file sizes that match what you get using JPEG, as suggested by bpalermini above, but without the need to muck about manually creating JPEG files, getting them into your Lr catalogue, and then deleting the TIFF file.

You can also open each of your existing TIFF files in Ps, flatten the image, convert to sRGB, then convert to 8 bit. It is very important that you do the previous steps in this order, to ensure that you maintain maximum possible quality throughout the process. Then you can either just save the image, to get a file the size of a max quality JPEG. Or Save as, use the same file name, and select LZW compression to make the file even smaller.


My Flickr (external link)
My new Aviation images blog site (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DaviSto
THREAD ­ STARTER
... sorry. I got carried away!
Avatar
1,904 posts
Gallery: 56 photos
Likes: 872
Joined Nov 2016
Location: Abuja Nigeria
     
Dec 28, 2017 19:47 as a reply to  @ BigAl007's post |  #14

Hey Alan,

It's late .... and that's a lot of information to take on board. I'm going to take another look at your post in the morning because I think you are getting close to a possible solution to my problem.

Thanks,

David.


David.
Comment and (constructive) criticism always welcome.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
CyberDyneSystems
Admin (type T-2000)
Avatar
48,205 posts
Gallery: 79 photos
Likes: 4351
Joined Apr 2003
Location: Rhode Island USA
     
Dec 29, 2017 00:06 |  #15

TooManyShots wrote in post #18528256 (external link)
PSD is photoshop file format. You exported your raw files into tiff format. Then, you edit the tiff file in photoshop. ...

You CAN save as .psd, but you don't have to.


GEAR LIST
CDS' HOT LINKS
Jake Hegnauer Photography (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

3,433 views & 2 likes for this thread
Managing huge TIF files
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.0forum software
version 2.0 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is TeMontri
737 guests, 430 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 6430, that happened on Dec 03, 2017

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.