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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting
Thread started 19 Jan 2018 (Friday) 09:33
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Snow, flash and Sekonic meter... have some questions before session

 
rosh4u
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Jan 27, 2018 00:31 |  #16

Worthy points to take a note. Thanks mates


Roshni Patel Co-founder of Auto Stamper (external link)

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dmward
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Joined Jun 2009
Metro Chicago
Jan 27, 2018 08:12 |  #17

Wilt wrote in post #18549927 (external link)
David, I had to first consult my copy of Exposure by Adams to be certain about this:
He points out that Zone 0 is Black and Zone X is White, and that the Dynamic Range falls between, in Zone I - IX. And he states that detail may be lost in Zone IX or X.

Now, that classic explanation seems to fly in the face of statements by DxOMark that the Sony A6500 has 13.7EV of dynamic range of exposure, and the A7RII has 13.9EV of dynamic range of exposure! But one might explain that there are conceptually only Zones 0-X of tonality on a print, and no matter how the camera captures EV of dynamic range, whether it is across 10EV or across 14EV of exposure range, it still all must nevertheless fit those EV between tonal ranges, Zones 0 (Black) thru Zone X (White) on print, so there need not be an apparent conflict between eleven tonal Zones and 14EV of dynamic range of exposure.

Thanks for checking the authority.
I was going from memory and we know the risk of that when one gets to my age.

Again from memory; the zone system that AA created is intended to accomplish two things; a) provide a means for evaluating where on the tone curve the photographer wants a particular element in the scene to be placed. B) a means for evaluating the dynamic range of the enigma photographed and what combination of exposure and processing is required to get the dynamic range into the tonal range of the film.

push processing to steepen the tone curve. Pull processing to flatten it. Then lots of manipulation when making the print.

Modern digital cameras and processing software are a joy compared with the laborious efforts required with film.


David | Sharing my Insights, Knowledge & Experience (external link) | dmwfotos website (external link)

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dmward
Cream of the Crop
Joined Jun 2009
Metro Chicago
Jan 27, 2018 08:15 |  #18

RDKirk wrote in post #18549814 (external link)
I love Live View. It brought my groundglass back, better than ever.

Now, with HDMI, I can attach a larger screen to my cameras and get the benefit of a larger screen for composition and focusing. When combined with tilt shift lenses it’s that much more like a view camera.


David | Sharing my Insights, Knowledge & Experience (external link) | dmwfotos website (external link)

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Wilt
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Post has been edited 25 days ago by Wilt.
Jan 27, 2018 12:18 |  #19

dmward wrote in post #18550057 (external link)
Modern digital cameras and processing software are a joy compared with the laborious efforts required with film.

For sure, when going out to 'shoot a roll' of 135, we can process each shot individually, rather than pushing or pulling the whole roll!
And keeping track of which piece of sheet film gets N+1 development or N-2 development is no longer a stone tied around our neck.
:-D


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dmward
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Jan 27, 2018 13:05 |  #20

Wilt wrote in post #18550203 (external link)
For sure, when going out to 'shoot a roll' of 135, we can process each shot individually, rather than pushing or pulling the whole roll!
And keeping track of which piece of sheet film gets N+1 development or N-2 development is no longer a stone tied around our neck.
:-D

So true. I used to carry three backs for my Hassy, one marked +, one - and the other without a marking, which meant normal.
Then had three different developers formulated one for each exposure set.

Sheet film was similar, but used colored tape on the holders. Often shot normal plus or normal minus combinations.

Now I have presets in Lightroom to get the best dynamic range simulations.

Not sure if you’ve tried it but, when creating a camera profile for Lightroom using DNG Editor, its possible to apply different tone curves to the camera profile. The Adobe default is ballooned up in the mid-tones which causes serious compression for shadows and highlights.

I have two profiles for each camera, one with Adobe standard profile and one with a straight tone curve. When the linear profile is applied the image looks dark, flat and muddy. But there is an amazing amount of detail to play with when processing.


David | Sharing my Insights, Knowledge & Experience (external link) | dmwfotos website (external link)

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RDKirk
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Jan 27, 2018 20:56 |  #21

Wilt wrote in post #18549927 (external link)
David, I had to first consult my copy of Exposure by Adams to be certain about this:
He points out that Zone 0 is Black and Zone X is White, and that the Dynamic Range falls between, in Zone I - IX. And he states that detail may be lost in Zone IX or X.

Now, that classic explanation seems to fly in the face of statements by DxOMark that the Sony A6500 has 13.7EV of dynamic range of exposure, and the A7RII has 13.9EV of dynamic range of exposure! But one might explain that there are conceptually only Zones 0-X of tonality on a print, and no matter how the camera captures EV of dynamic range, whether it is across 10EV or across 14EV of exposure range, it still all must nevertheless fit those EV between tonal ranges, Zones 0 (Black) thru Zone X (White) on print, so there need not be an apparent conflict between eleven tonal Zones and 14EV of dynamic range of exposure.

But we always knew that. We always knew negatives and transparencies held more dynamic than could be reproduced in a print.




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Wilt
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Jan 28, 2018 12:01 |  #22

RDKirk wrote in post #18550535 (external link)
But we always knew that. We always knew negatives and transparencies held more dynamic than could be reproduced in a print.

We who worked with film and prints.
Now we have two generations of photographers who don't even know what a roll of film looks like, or how to load it into a film camera, or that the DR of the film and print can be fit within the legendary (but poorly understood now) Zone System. So a reminder of what was once more widely known can be beneficial!


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RDKirk
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Jan 28, 2018 12:32 |  #23

Wilt wrote in post #18550979 (external link)
We who worked with film and prints.
Now we have two generations of photographers who don't even know what a roll of film looks like, or how to load it into a film camera, or that the DR of the film and print can be fit within the legendary (but poorly understood now) Zone System. So a reminder of what was once more widely known can be beneficial!

I think the big thing to continue to carry from the Zone System is the concept of finding a way to fit the scene's dynamic range--which in a landscape will be greater than that of a single exposure of any camera-- into an acceptable compromise in the final display, whether print or screen.

Find the compromise with the tools you have now is the take-away, rather than being anguished in a constant search for a the next sensor with more dynamic range, like searching for El Dorado.

The most important thing that happened for Zone System advocates was all the work we put in on the front end of the process that involved wringing out everything our cameras and processes could do, front to back, side to side, top to bottom, so that we thoroughly understood what was happening in the process and how changes affect it.

At the end, a good Zonie was like a professional golfer who knows how to chose a club and alter his swing just right for each shot, regardless of the conditions presented by the situation.

I get frustrated with modern photographers who ask simple questions about exposure when they have digital cameras that make it so simple just to get out and do it and find out for themselves...often quicker than they could get answers online.




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Wilt
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Post has been edited 24 days ago by Wilt.
Jan 28, 2018 13:12 |  #24

RDKirk wrote in post #18550995 (external link)
I get frustrated with modern photographers who ask simple questions about exposure when they have digital cameras that make it so simple just to get out and do it and find out for themselves...often quicker than they could get answers online.

I often wonder about questions posed without apparent any investigation of their own with later on-line attempts to validate or disprove their findings...After all IT'S FREE to do lots of test exposures of your own, and you learn so much by investigation!

Admittedly digital has added immeasurably to my own breadth and depth of photographic understanding, because tests would have been so expensive and time consuming in the film days.

My own take on the points of value of the Zone System in the days of digital is merely (without any manipulation in post processing)


  1. the basic concept that a meter reads any target area and then gives you an exposure that makes the target rendition fall into Zone 5...and that understanding
  2. would eliminate so much of the underexposed shots that are posted, or
  3. if you have anything which is brighter/darker than Zone V and you want it to be correctly recorded at its inherent brightness, the brightness difference is what you dial into EC

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RDKirk
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Jan 28, 2018 15:16 |  #25

Wilt wrote in post #18551017 (external link)
I often wonder about questions posed without apparent any investigation of their own with later on-line attempts to validate or disprove their findings...After all IT'S FREE to do lots of test exposures of your own, and you learn so much by investigation!

Admittedly digital has added immeasurably to my own breadth and depth of photographic understanding, because tests would have been so expensive and time consuming in the film days.

And you don't have to take nearly as many notes.




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Snow, flash and Sekonic meter... have some questions before session
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