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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 04 May 2018 (Friday) 09:44
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Outdoor HSS with Speedlite ... 7", 10", or 16"

 
kmilo
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May 04, 2018 09:44 |  #1

I want to have a "run and gun" outdoor portrait system that I can bring when I go to the park with the kids. Something that's easy to carry, sets up quick, and isn't a burden. Obviously, I also want quality light. I have an 80D and two 430EXIII RT's, but I only want to use one of them. I'm NOT trying to overpower the sun. I do not believe I need more power and do not plan on buying any other flash.

My only question is this: Do you think I'll see a noticeable difference in light quality between a bare flash, a flash with a 7" reflector, a flash with a 10" long throw type reflector, and a 16" beauty dish?

I think the 10" reflector will give me the most power, and the 16" beauty dish will give me the least power, but more importantly ... I don't think I'll see a difference in light quality given that all of these options are relatively small.

For this photo, I used a 24" umbrella ... but umbrellas catch too much wind, and I want to try something else. Yes, a 24" beauty dish is an option, but it's bigger and I'm less likely to want to bring it with me.

Thanks for your thoughts.

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4429/36640090055_d6d3746329_b.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/XPL3​fB  (external link) IMG_5633 (external link) by Kris Milo (external link), on Flickr

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MalVeauX
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Post edited 20 days ago by MalVeauX.
     
May 04, 2018 10:20 |  #2

Heya,

I do single speedlite in the sun all the time. I use a 5.5" and a 10" reflector. I also use a 28" beauty dish. The dish needs an assistant or a stand, so not a run& gun option. I did however do flash + 5.5" reflector on a boom stick and I can totally run & gun with that at close distance with a wide angle lens and I prefer that. The 10" reflector is better in my opinion and I enjoy it, but, it's bigger, heavier, and even more directional, but it's still a run & gun option as you can set it up on a boom stick and hand hold it easily.

You lose a lot of output as your speedlite gets farther away from your subjects. And the speedlite cannot effectively fill larger modifiers without a lot of distance between them (such as a huge umbrella or softbox) with the speedlite head (fresnel?). They're great for fill light, even in full sun, at close proximity to subject. Reflectors are great as you can keep your output higher rather than lose a ton to a larger surface area. You just have to keep in mind the angular spread and if you get it too tight and too close, you get very isolating effects (which can be great, but not always ideal if you want a natural blended look).

That said, bare flash is fine if you're using it as fill. If it's proper fill you won't see hard spectral highlights really and it's a lot less to carry for run & gun. I do this often. I only throw a gel on there if we're in some warm light (1/4th CTO) (and despite the gimicky nature of magmod stuff, I really like the magmod gel system and I use it, it's so fast and simple , so I really enjoy that).

Here's my smallest self-carry run & gun, it's a just a flashpoint boom stick with a 5.5" reflector (bowens) with a speedlite on an s-bracket (bowens). Great for close range wide angle run & gun, which I do when we're out and especially in public areas and I want the weight down.

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4238/35761960236_7b3ab3cbe7_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/Wuao​Rj  (external link) IMG_0947 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

Here's how I use it in full sun at close range (ultrawide angle lets me get really close so I can get a lot of power retention from the speedlite) to match and/or simply fill, this is at F8, ISo 50, 1/200 (synch speed) so I don't lose power to HSS (just using TTL):

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4236/35747072195_baf22435c4_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/WsR6​9X  (external link) IMG_6064 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4258/35577678372_b41c6e6b73_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/WcSU​gN  (external link) IMG_6082 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

Same concept, just 1/200s synch speed (to not lose power to HSS), base ISO, and let my aperture be variable. Full flash with the reflector at close range with an ultrawide angle:

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4241/35359038730_3f3b98de78_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/VSyj​jN  (external link) IMG_6123 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

++++++++++++++

Here's bare flash, no modifier, set to ETTL and fill light (-2/3rds EC, +/- depending on what I want):

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4153/35705875146_da24eb5359_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/WpcW​H1  (external link) IMG_6168 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4260/35430088981_51d1f023ab_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/VYQt​68  (external link) IMG_6025 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4214/35430089551_d5ba0789e3_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/VYQt​fX  (external link) IMG_6017 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

The farther you are from the subject, the harder the light is (see last example above, you can see spectral highlights, was too far away to soften it).

I always take a flash. I don't always take a modifier. Just adjust how you are lighting the subject based on what you have. For me, with speedlites, I'm trying to get close to subject and only go for fill (in sunlight). If I had a modifier, I can often match full sun and/or fill, and gain some distance.

I use bigger modifiers and strobes for purposeful sessions. For just going out with the girls, I just take a speedlite and either use a 5.5" or 10" reflector and sometimes my 28" beauty dish.

Very best,

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Left ­ Handed ­ Brisket
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May 04, 2018 10:34 |  #3

Zero inch modifier would be my go-to with a speedlight in HSS.

Don't forget a gel or two. 1/4 straw, 1/4 CTO


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Wilt
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Post edited 20 days ago by Wilt. (2 edits in all)
     
May 04, 2018 10:35 |  #4

MalVeauX wrote in post #18619360 (external link)
The farther you are from the subject, the harder the light is (see last example above, you can see spectral highlights, was too far away to soften it).

^ Conventional wisdom says to use a softbox with 3x its largest dimension for it to be 'soft'...and any farther away causes it to transition progressively to a 'small source' behavior.

A long time ago I posted this on POTN, to show what the effects of a small 5" x 7" softbox would have on light, vs. a 16" x 20" softbox, both from the distance of 20'

http://photography-on-the.net …showthread.php?​p=16135123


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MalVeauX
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Post edited 20 days ago by MalVeauX. (10 edits in all)
     
May 04, 2018 12:12 as a reply to  @ Wilt's post |  #5

Kris, almost forgot to clearly mention, going into HSS automatically lowers our speedlite's output potential significantly. So keep that in mind. The modifier you use, or no modifier, will need to be efficient and close to the subject in relative distance to maintain adequate output to achieve fill, or match even, in various levels of normal day light when out and about with your kids. This is why in some of my above examples, I didn't use HSS and instead just used 1/200s and lowest ISO, and let my aperture be variable, to keep the output from the light up and not lose a stop of output to HSS pulsing. Compared to some others, I did use HSS with wide aperture, but still at very close proximity to the subject, to keep the output on the subject higher.

Here's the (overpriced) Magmod Gel I use (with a CTO 1/4th loaded). It literally just snaps on. So fast. So simple. Goes in your pocket until you need it. I use this the most often, bare flash, for HSS ETTL fill flash in golden hour or generally warm temp lighting situations, no modifier.


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And here's bare flash, with CTO 1/4th gel, in HSS & ETLL set for fill:

IMAGE: https://farm1.staticflickr.com/670/32795495210_fa952be42d_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/RY2u​9A  (external link) IMG_5209 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4213/35568744725_c493b0fa6f_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/Wc67​Bp  (external link) IMG_5994 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5767/30031546674_91544f643c_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/MKMw​xu  (external link) IMG_4507_mark (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

Also bare flash, HSS & TLL:

IMAGE: https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3703/33798294116_1de60d6b1d_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/TuD6​jU  (external link) IMG_5461 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

+++++++++++++++

Here's the size of a 10" reflector on a speedlite (forgive the awful image showing it, it's top right). It can still be hand held on a boom while shooting. It's very efficient. I use this to battle sun with wide angle spread. At close range, it is a fireball.

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4524/37884932295_65eea49012_z.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/ZHLb​tR  (external link) XT1_Wifi_Demo (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

Here's the softeness/harshness (softer in this situation due to proximity to subject) and shape of the light that comes out of this 10" (this was not the setup for this shot above, just showing what that specific 10" reflector outputs with respect to shape and spread):

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4246/34396948133_5e916ab099_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/Upxm​iT  (external link) IMG_5887 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

Very best,

My Flickr (external link) :: My Astrobin (external link)

  
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kmilo
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Post edited 20 days ago by kmilo.
     
May 04, 2018 12:40 |  #6

Thank you, Martin, for your thorough answer. I know the technical side of things pretty well, and I agree with everything you've said. I'm still not sure if it's worth it to buy a reflector ... or just shoot bare flash. I think adding a 5.5, 7, or 10 inch reflector will increase the power (not a beauty dish), which could be useful, but I imagine it won't change the light quality much ... still harsh, direct light even though the light source is getting larger.

edit to add ... I'm liking the look and increased power of that 10" at the moment


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MalVeauX
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May 04, 2018 12:41 |  #7

Lastly, here's my 28" beauty dish on a boom stick to hold. It's about as big as I can go and manage. I generally balance it with the handle on the ground. It's not my grab & go, it's too big and heavy to walk around in public with in my opinion (but you can get collapsible forms). It loses a lot of efficiency with a speedlite with the surface area and the inside reflector to spread it out into the dish, but at close range, you can still get enough for fill light in golden hour at close range (which is what I use it for):

IMAGE: https://farm1.staticflickr.com/961/26862130287_a9c4036e8e_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/GVHr​tn  (external link) 20180426_193656 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

Here's the 28" dish's light output with a single speedlite, HSS & ETTL on, going for fill to full flash in sunset light (harsh):

IMAGE: https://farm1.staticflickr.com/910/27861530408_aa94408612_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/Js2C​iW  (external link) DSCF8821 copy (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: https://farm1.staticflickr.com/973/27861547388_7df5dfe417_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/Js2H​mG  (external link) DSCF8806 copy (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

And some brighter pre-sunset light, less harsh:

IMAGE: https://farm1.staticflickr.com/964/27861600138_b5d6bba30a_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/Js2Z​3b  (external link) DSCF8753 copy (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

Very best,

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May 04, 2018 12:44 |  #8

kmilo wrote in post #18619459 (external link)
Thank you, Martin, for your thorough answer. I know the technical side of things pretty well, and I agree with everything you've said. I'm still not sure if it's worth it to buy a reflector ... or just shoot bare flash. I think adding a 5.5, 7, or 10 inch reflector will increase the power (not a beauty dish), which could be useful, but I imagine it won't change the light quality much ... still harsh, direct light even though the light source is getting larger.

Hey sorry had to spread it out over a few posts due to image # limits. I added examples of bare flash + CTO with HSS in sunlight in real situations. I then added the 10" reflector and a 28" beauty dish to show you the softness/hardness of that kind of light, again, with a speedlite.

Overall, having done this a lot, I would definitely go with a bare flash + CTO gel as your minimum.

The reason I would suggest a reflector is for being able to take the flash off the camera, increase it's efficiency, and to be able to hold it at different angles relative to your subject, without being too heavy, or requiring some complex stand or other gear. A 5.5"~7" reflector is excellent for a speedlite on a little boom stick with a speedlite. You can hand it over them and take a shot. Or you can hold it off to the side, opposing them, and take the shot.

Very best,


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kmilo
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Post edited 20 days ago by kmilo.
     
May 04, 2018 12:51 as a reply to  @ MalVeauX's post |  #9

yup ... I have a monopod with the metal screw on tripod feet. It's more stable than you'd think ... giving me the option to hold it like a boom stick, or in no wind - set it where I want it.

edit: this thing. It only gives you about 5 feet of height, but for kids and sitting people, it works ... or I can hand hold it higher up: http://www.manfrotto.c​om.br …anding-monopod-black.html (external link)


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May 04, 2018 12:58 |  #10

kmilo wrote in post #18619468 (external link)
yup ... I have a monopod with the metal screw on tripod feet. It's more stable than you'd think ... giving me the option to hold it like a boom stick, or in no wind - set it where I want it.

That with a speedlite (even bare) gives you the option to put the light off camera in another angled position and that alone can be all you need to get a really well lit fill flash (or full flash) shot even in sun. Adding a smaller reflector will increase efficiency while keeping a slightly larger apparent light source (for softness purposes), but it's slight. You can achieve a similar thing of course by using the zoom of your flash, but it will create a very obvious look I find and maintains a tiny apparent light source. Great in hard light. But if your goal is blended softer light with ambient, it's not as good (to me). A 5.5~7" reflector is a great tool to try out (and cheap!). Way better than lugging umbrellas, that's for sure, and no stands. Makes shooting with lighting fun and easy for everyone.

++++++++++++++

My most compact and simple means of wide aperture and flash is my little Fuji X100S. It has a leaf shutter so syncs with flash at any speed up to 1/4000s, it does F2 at the fastest. It has an on-body TTL flash that can sync at any shutter speed due to leaf shutter. It does great fill flash. And it has a 3 stop ND filter built in, to manage the leaf shutter speed at wide apertures. Point being though, the flash is on-camera and it's an overall super compact system with lighting, fast aperture, and it's all on the body and simple and tiny for walking around with the family and does the fill light job in full sun (at close proximity):

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4454/37289484694_056ebd8652_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/YP9m​DU  (external link) IMG_9244 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

IMAGE: https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4458/38072337061_9c7452d1b3_c.jpg
IMAGE LINK: https://flic.kr/p/211j​Fov  (external link) DSCF8812 (external link) by Martin Wise (external link), on Flickr

Very best,

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kmilo
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May 04, 2018 14:02 |  #11

just ordered a 7 ... I'll keep you posted :)


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May 06, 2018 12:26 |  #12

Wilt wrote in post #18619366 (external link)
^ Conventional wisdom says to use a softbox with 3x its largest dimension for it to be 'soft'...and any farther away causes it to transition progressively to a 'small source' behavior.

A long time ago I posted this on POTN, to show what the effects of a small 5" x 7" softbox would have on light, vs. a 16" x 20" softbox, both from the distance of 20'

http://photography-on-the.net …showthread.php?​p=16135123

That was posted years ago. Light no longer works that way. I’d update that example to show folks how it works today.

:-D. ;-)a


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Post edited 18 days ago by Wilt. (2 edits in all)
     
May 06, 2018 15:23 as a reply to  @ Angmo's post |  #13

Confirmation of the existence of the Higgs boson has the physics community particularly buzzing, especially those who did subscribe to that theory.
That photons are massless renders them impervious to Higgs fields.

All that is fortunately irrelevant to the discussion of the effect of different size softboxes upon photography.


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May 06, 2018 19:28 |  #14

Wilt wrote in post #18620696 (external link)
Confirmation of the existence of the Higgs boson has the physics community particularly buzzing, especially those who did subscribe to that theory.
That photons are massless renders them impervious to Higgs fields.

All that is fortunately irrelevant to the discussion of the effect of different size softboxes upon photography.

Folks at Fermi are jealous..


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May 08, 2018 21:53 |  #15

I like the soft light that I get using a hotshoe flash (I mostly use the Canon 600EX-RT with an off camera sync cord) and a small softbox on a Stroboframe Camera Flip Bracket...

IMAGE: https://photos.smugmug.com/Photography/Photo-Equipment/i-XWfR386/0/e49f9b10/O/Flash%20Fill%20Portrait%20Rig_0076%20-%20Copy.jpg
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I also use a Joe Demb Flash Difuser Pro on the Stroboframe Camera Flip Bracket...

IMAGE: https://photos.smugmug.com/Photography/Photo-Equipment/i-wjzDG6z/0/42a0b46a/O/Demb%20DFD%20positions.jpg
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I have recently purchased a Flashpoint Streaklight 360ii (rebranded Godox AD360ii) for the extra power it provides (at the cost of extra weight). I am thinking that the standard reflector and diffuser might be all that I need for outdoor fill flash. However, there are a plethora of accessories available for this unit if the standard reflector and diffuser is not sufficient...

See my images at http://rpcrowe.smugmug​.com/ (external link)

  
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Outdoor HSS with Speedlite ... 7", 10", or 16"
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