FIRST POST Hockey trouble

[H8Monday]

Hello all, I have recently entered into TWO activities that I am unfamiliar with. I have become a hockey dad, and I have just purchased a new Canon S3IS to get into photography. Just before buyiing the camera, I joined this site and began to glean as much info about shooting various sports etc, and tried to learn a little about PP as well. Thank you all for your guidance!
I am attatching 2 shots from my daughters game last week. The quality of the pics are far less than I expected. I have a very basic understanding of photography, and a strong desire to catch 'moments' as they happen. Trying to shoot her game was a humbling experience. Tips, CC and setting advice would be greatly appreciated. I have another game to shoot tomorrow.

both shots were at f4.0 1/125 and iso800. I am uncertain how to atach the info file (xif?)

[H8Monday]

Would anyone be interested in offering up some suggs to help me make better shots? Do I need that 400D and a 70-200 to get the great pics in this arena? Or can I do better with the hardware that I currently own. Can someone take a stab at some editing for me to show me what I could do? I currently have Microsoft Digital Image Suite 2006.

[H8Monday]

Over 50 views and nobody wants to offer anything? Should I just eBay this thing and be done with it?

[Schipperke]

I am not familiar with the Canon S3IS. Does it have manual settings? For indoor hockey you need lots of light. For stop action shots you want to be shooting as fast as you can. 1/250 at least.

[Bob_A]

I don't think these are too bad for someone new to taking photos of sports.

You are pretty much at the limit of the camera (f/4 and ISO 800), so you're not going to get a much "crisper" looking image. However the things I see that can be improved are:

1. The images are crooked and need to be cropped, which is an easy fix in PS.
2. The white balance is off a little bit, which is pretty typical for digital cameras. Again, easily fixed in PS.

The rest is more composition and grabbing that special moment which takes practice and timing. For example, the second one would be more interesting if the puck was clearly in the shot as you capture the two players chase after it ... without the puck the story isn't there for me.

[Lacks_focus]

Not sure I can offer much help, but how about some sympathy? I've been struggling with the same thing for a long time. Mostly with film. That can get frustrating because you're never entirely sure your "latest attempt / trick" will be the one that nails it until you get the negatives back and spend time in front of a scanner!

The two biggest issues we youth hockey shooters / dads are up against would be the fact that most of these rinks are very poorly lit, and we normally have to shoot through the rather beat up glass. Not good!

I've been playing with my new to me 10D. Much better results. Still working on it though. I find ISO 800 about as good as I ever got with film ISO 400.

On the lens issue. I have an 80-200 f2.8 and I find it boarder line fast enough. What I find works the best are my 50 and 85 f1.8s. Since we are right at the glass anyway, the 80-200 is almost too long, especially with the 1.6 crop factor of the digitals. I've only used the 10D for one game. I shot everything at ISO 800. With the 85 f1.8, I was able to get 1/200 @ f2 to f3ish and at 1/320 I was seeing f1.8 to around f2. Not too bad, but next game I'm going to shoot at ISO 400 and see how it looks. I also want to try the various "noise cleaning" software available to see how it can clean things up at higher speeds. Fastest possible shutter speed is the way to go for the clean pics. Some of the shots I got at 1/320, you can cleanly see the eyes through the face mask. Never got close to that with film!!!

Here's a pic. Not one of the best, but not too bad. It was shot at ISO 800, 1/200 @ f2.0 using the 85 f1.8.

[DavidEB]

I agree with a lot of what's been said above. Light in local rinks is never good enough, you need the fastest ISO setting you can get. Canon's SLRs do very well at ISO1600, and if you're careful with exposure, do OK at ISO3200. Use manual exposure as auto (Av, Tv, whatever...) varies depending on how much of the frame is ice and how much is dark uniforms. Custom white balance helps a lot.

the older the kid, the faster they skate. for mites & squirts you can get away with 1/200. I was able to use a 70-300 f4-5.6 zoom. As they get older, they move faster. For peewees & bantams you want 1/400. For midgets & up, 1/400 is marginal. I like to keep my shutter above 1/600. So you need more ISO and faster glass. 70-200 f2.8 zooms and faster primes.

another problem is shooting thru glass. for your kid's team, you can get in the penalty box. wear a helmet. from that vantage you're taking photos of rear ends on offence, and only get face shots during breakouts and defence.

H8, you have the most important thing down, which is timing. Take your shots to include the puck, and include contention, or action.

[Lacks_focus]

Originally Posted by DavidEB

the older the kid, the faster they skate.

Very true, and it makes a difference on your timing the shots! My kid moved up this season and it's like everything is in fast-forward! Not only can they skate faster, but they know how to play better as well. It's a little harder to get that perfect shot. I thought I had an awesome pic of a shot on net the same night as the pic I posted above. As I reviewed it, I saw a nice sharp shot of the goalies head, stick, and puck-in-flight being mostly blocked by a big blurry shot of the right wing's butt as he was popping into position to pick up the rebound !

[H8Monday]

So my current hardware is a large limiting factor? I am shooting at iso800 which results in terrible noise. I shot another game of hers Sat and used AV at f3.5 and iso800 and custom white balance, which results in 1/100 shutter speeds and plenty of blurry shots. I also tried to adjust the exposure to a +1.3 to get some more light, but still limited success.
Looks like I should ask Santa for that 400D and a long lens.
Thanks for your thoughts.

[Sledhed]

Here's my attempt at some quick editing on your pics. All I did was curves and straighten the image. I agree with everybody else has said so far, use as fast a shutter speed as possible. I'm not real familiar with the S3 so I'm not sure what ISO it will go up to but the noise didn't look too bad in your picture.

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[H8Monday]

Well Thank you Chris! So... I can get noticable improvements by learning some PP. I noticed that the colors are much better as well as the crop. What software was used?
As for the capabilities of the S3, its maxed out at 3.5 and iso800 as far as getting light into it.

[Sledhed]

The color cast is from the white balance being off in the image. If you can shoot RAW or set a custom WB on that camera that would be the way to go. I used curves in Photoshop CS to help the color a little. I almost forgot, welcome to the forum.

[Bob_A]

Originally Posted by H8Monday

So my current hardware is a large limiting factor? I am shooting at iso800 which results in terrible noise. I shot another game of hers Sat and used AV at f3.5 and iso800 and custom white balance, which results in 1/100 shutter speeds and plenty of blurry shots. I also tried to adjust the exposure to a +1.3 to get some more light, but still limited success.
Looks like I should ask Santa for that 400D and a long lens.
Thanks for your thoughts.

Your images look pretty good for ISO 800 from a P&S. You will see much less noise using a DSLR though.

If you get a 400D with a long lens for indoor sports, look at something like a Sigma 70-200 f/2.8 if you have a budget, or the Canon 70-200 f/2.8L if you have deeper pockets. With this combo you could shoot the same images you posted at:

- ISO 800, f/2.8 and 1/250s (less motion blur than what you shot, and way less noise)
- 1SO 1600, f/2.8 and 1/500s (essentially no motion blur, and still less noise than ISO 800 on your P&S)

[bgphotoo]

If you can try to get behind the goal and get the players coming toward you so that you can see faces.