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Old 14th of November 2006 (Tue)   #1
sirsloop
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Default eXtreme reverse lens macro with a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD Mount Lens! -> PIcs

bear with me this is a book, but should be an interesting read for macro enthusiasts....

I'm not sure how many of you are aware of reverse lens macro photography. I think there are a lot of people that think their 70-300 "macro" lens is "macro", or that they needed to spend thousands on a 65mm and twin light setup to get CRAZY close to an object.

I won't get really deep into it, but by using a wide angle lens stopped down, and mounted on the body backwards you can achieve INSANE levels of zoom with amazing results. As anyone that has tried out macro photography knows, a flash is pretty much neccessary unless you make the sacrifice and live with paper thin DOF.

I first started toying around with this by hand holding my old 17-85mm IS lens on to the body, and took a photo of a mosquitos head. After I sold that lens I played with my 50mm f/1.8mk1, then my 35mm f/2 lens.



The problem now was I was holding the lend on the body, which made it super had to control the camera and get things in focus. It was like I needed a third hand. I found an aluminum reverse macro ring adapter for a 52mm threaded lens on ebay for $11 shipped - SCORE! Now I didnt have to hold my 50mm or 35mm lens on.

Next problem, the aperture! These days aperture is all computer controlled and is adjusted on the fly with I think electromagnetic servos. No good for reverse macro, because all that does not work. Solution: Use an old school wide angle lens with manual aperture control and 52mm threads. Enter ebay shopping and a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD mount lens FOR $15 bucks. This thing is NICE... AND ITS 15 BUCKS!! Really you are are looking for any manual aperture lens with 52mm threads... this fit the bill and would result in CRAZY macros.

So why bother with this thing? If you use a modern lens, you have to set the aperture on the camera, then take the lens off the camera with the apertiure closed. I dont know how many of you have tried to manual focus through a f/22 aperture. IT AINT HAPPEN'iN. I look through the lens at f/2.8 and get the sweet spot in the center of where i'm shooting. Using my pinkey finger I push the aperture shut while simultaneously pressing the shutter on the camera. Voila! I suddently went from 5-10% keeper rate to I'd say 80-90% keeper rate. Besides... I don't forsee many people sticking the unprotected rear element of a $200-$1500 lens two inches from a possibly damaging object. If you break it, buy another... its 15 freakin bucks.

So now on to the good stuff... the shots!

My current macro rig consists of my Rebel XTi, 580ex, Jacobs black box, 7" Delta Flip bracket, and the 28mm f/2.8 FD lens. I can still mount my 50mm or 35mm lens on there giving me less zoom, but I have to put the lens on the camera to set the aperture. I will probably get a FD mount 50mm lens in the near future.






Last edited by sirsloop : 14th of November 2006 (Tue) at 20:42.
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Old 14th of November 2006 (Tue)   #2
sirsloop
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Default Re: eXtreme reverse lens macro with a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD Mount Lens! -> PIcs

Some sample shots. First up something real familiar... a penny. You fill the entire frame with about 1/3 of the penny!!

original http://www.jdhaesloop.com/reverse/IMG_6190s.JPG


You get about 3/8" out of the full frame here...

original http://www.jdhaesloop.com/reverse/IMG_6196s.JPG



I also took a few shots to show you why the manual aperture lens is important.

A duracell coppertop AA battery.

f/2.8
original http://www.jdhaesloop.com/reverse/IMG_6194s.JPG


f/22
original http://www.jdhaesloop.com/reverse/IMG_6195s.JPG


Buttons on my Motorola V710 cellphone

f/2.8
original http://www.jdhaesloop.com/reverse/IMG_6193s.JPG


f/22
original http://www.jdhaesloop.com/reverse/IMG_6192s.JPG


Notice the file names... I took these all in a row, first time success on all of them. The flash controls exposure... so there is no fussing around getting it right with manual controls. Just set the damn thing M, ISO 100, 1/200th and you are ready to rock.

Anyways, I just got the lens today so I haven't had any real amounts of time behind it. I'm sure soon enough i'll be posting up some insane crazy photos of some other critter (if I can find any left...here in November).

Costs:
Lens: ~20 shipped
Reverse adapter: 11 shipped
Flash Bracket: 40 shipped
Off-camera cord: 50 bucks

I also posted up a few jumping spider shots I took with my 35mm f/2... set I think on f/11. Those are here: http://photos.tallmanphoto.com/galle...31/1/104593205

Last edited by sirsloop : 14th of November 2006 (Tue) at 20:46.
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Old 14th of November 2006 (Tue)   #3
Samdiver74
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Default Re: eXtreme reverse lens macro with a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD Mount Lens! -> PIcs

Sirsloop
Great stuff, I need to try this as I have had relatively poor results with a reversed 28mm FD on my 70-300mm Sigma Vignetting issues and short DOF etc
Not to mention the lens creep from all the extra weight if shooting down. Plus I don't have a 580EX as of yet but plan to get one soon.

Do you have a link for the EOS to 52mm adapter or a part number?
Also what part did you press with your finger for the aperture?
Thanks
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Old 14th of November 2006 (Tue)   #4
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Default Re: eXtreme reverse lens macro with a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD Mount Lens! -> PIcs

Forget the 70-300+the 28mm thing. I tried that as well and only got a black circle with some blurry gunk in the middle! HA! Stick with just the 28mm FD... and save up some money for at least SOME kind of hotshoe flash, bracket, and offshoe cord. The hotshoe flash (prefereably a high powered one like the 580ex) is WORTH ITS WEIGHT IN GOLD... and I'm not talking about just for macro... for everything!!! That black box battery is also a real steal at 160 bucks.

here's that ring... http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...1006&rd=1&rd=1
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Old 14th of November 2006 (Tue)   #5
Alex Paul
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Default Re: eXtreme reverse lens macro with a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD Mount Lens! -> PIcs

This is an outstanding solution until you want to get into the 3x and higher mags. I find lens stacking with a reversed 50 sweet and with tubes getting up to 5x. There are ways to get around the challenges you mention but it takes time to get a handle on it..... Nice fly eye detail... Try a midge, a piss ant or a mite....This is a great way to start high mag shooting but doesn't warrant "Forget about stacking" That is not based in fact. All methods have advantages, abilities, and short comings... Just because you struggle with one doesn't mean others aren't succesful with them.... No need to blanket condemn one method based on your personal struggle or failed attempt......Please continue with your teachings.......Take care.....Alex
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Old 14th of November 2006 (Tue)   #6
sirsloop
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Default Re: eXtreme reverse lens macro with a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD Mount Lens! -> PIcs

very true! There are DEFINITLY more than one way to skin the cat here. I can think of a few off the top of my head...5x macro lens (MP-65), extension tubes, TC"s, stacking lenses, bellows, single reverse lens.

I didnt want to spend a lot of money on a macro lens and tubes. Bellows are relatively cheap but ackward and cumbersome looking. Its hard to beat $31 for a lens and reverse macro adapter!!
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Old 15th of November 2006 (Wed)   #7
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Default Re: eXtreme reverse lens macro with a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD Mount Lens! -> PIcs

Ah but if you already own a 50 and a reasonable length telephoto or zoom lens the cost is under 15 bucks for the reversing rings needed and 7 bucks for some of the more common. There are many ways to skin a cat.... But each set up has good and bad... An MP-E with extension tubes..... Now there is a scary thought.... I would stick to the facts of the good experiences you are sharing with what you are doing and stay away from the professings of areas you are unsure of..... What you are stating about your new arrangement is great and the excitement is contageous but I suggest staying away from statements on aspects and set ups you are unsure of.... It will burn you and hurt your credibility..... I say this with respect.... Teaching is a great gift..... Teach fact and not opinion when you can't demonstrate a track record and or level of study that makes you an authority on a subject.. Share you experiences and teach what you know. When questions come up that are outside your field of knowledge don't wing an answer.... If some one asks advice on which system or technique is better don't answer with authority when it is just an opinion and or a guess..Unless you are publicly ready to defend your position....Stick to your level of learning and share the fun with the rev 28 direct mount....It is an excellent system..... It just isn't better than all the rest and it isn't cheaper under some circumstances...It is a very good way to get macro mags for a low dollar figure..... I use the system myself with 50, 28, and 24... It has its upside and downside.... The MP-E is a lot of money and does what it does well, but it has limits. The stacked rev 50 set up has high mags, is reasonably easy to use after a challenging learning curve, is cheap assuming you already have a telephoto or zoom lens and a kit lens or nifty fifty. The lenses can be used individually when you aren't shooting macro and with a lens capable of 200mm with tubes will give mags rivaling the MP-E and with practice by the shooter will also rival the image quality of the MP-E provided you are using high quality lenses..... Those are the facts.... I have many examples to prove these statements.... They all have good points, they all have limits. That is the proper answer....Not" Forget about that set up it doesn't work, It just gives a black blob in the middle of a dark circle, You can't get the new electronic 50's to stay wide open off the camera etc.... These are not facts based in a proficient experience level. With a better level of understanding and experience you would realize this.... These are also the facts..... I don't mean to flame you but you are presenting yourself as an authority and the new to macro crowd can be influenced by your statements.... Keep them factual and based on your level of experience and everyone will enjoy and some will learn good information with what you are sharing..... Take care.....Alex
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Last edited by Alex Paul : 15th of November 2006 (Wed) at 00:15.
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Old 15th of November 2006 (Wed)   #8
sirsloop
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Default Re: eXtreme reverse lens macro with a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD Mount Lens! -> PIcs

I'd love to see some shots you have taken with a nifty 50 stacked on top of a 70-300 lens. I tried it using a variety of settings and didnt get it to work nearly as well as a single lens reversed. Doesn't mean it doesnt work... the results I got were not very stellar so I did not post them. What settings on both lenses did you use to get around the vingetting issue?

I never said you can't get the aperture blades to stay closed on a new electronic lens. I wrote that you can get them to stay closed, its a pain to change, and its near impossible to accurately manual focus looking through a closed f/22 aperture. If you want me to write a long drawn out thread about the steps on how to accomplish this... I could. I kept it light on purpose so people would not fall over asleep in the first paragraph where I explained how to hold two buttons down at the same time and remove a lens.

This post was merely a factual representation about what I did in an half hours worth of fiddling with a new lens and adapter. Nothing more. I would hope that the readers here don't believe everything one person writes. What I hoped to do is show some people that have never done this thats is very inexpensive and can be a fun way to spend a few bucks and get some decent results.

If you are so bold as to criticize my thread, why dont you take a few minutes and share with us what the "upside and downside's" are of the setups that you mentioned instead of inferring that I was incorrect with generalizations? I'm a sponge for information too, and try out a lot of things that are posted here. Some work out for me, some don't. My photos are posted at the top of the page... proof in the pudding. Put that lens on that camera backwards with that flash with those settings and chances are you'll get photos that look like that.

sorry to bite back but that kinda "all-knowing" "superior-being" reply is one of my pet peeves Before replying to this red in the face... please just take a step back and realize that I didn't mean to step on anyones toes bashing MP65 lenses, stacked lenses, bellows, tubes... whatever. My thread is about *one* solution to some problems with certian lenses and ways to improve results when reversing them on a camera. Thats it. When I get a MP65 or a macro lens and some tubes I'll post my pictures and some indepth information/tricks I picked up with that setup.

Last edited by sirsloop : 15th of November 2006 (Wed) at 01:00.
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Old 15th of November 2006 (Wed)   #9
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Default Re: eXtreme reverse lens macro with a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD Mount Lens! -> PIcs

I think most of us are aware of the value of lens reversing as we've had quite a few threads on the subject recently but great to have your input and a suggestion for a cheap lens with manual aperture ring.
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Last edited by racketman : 15th of November 2006 (Wed) at 01:07.
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Old 15th of November 2006 (Wed)   #10
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Default Re: eXtreme reverse lens macro with a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD Mount Lens! -> PIcs

Good pics and demonstration of what can be done without getting expensive macro lenses. The one big negative of reversed lenses tends to be their close focus distances- not much good for most live bugs.
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Old 15th of November 2006 (Wed)   #11
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Default Re: eXtreme reverse lens macro with a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD Mount Lens! -> PIcs

If you follow the macro threads and posts you will see I have done just that and on more than few well respected sites .... Just stick to the facts. The 50 needs to be wide open and set to infinity focus. To avoid vignetting. The zoom lens can vary the mags by going from in your case 70-300. Sight in on 70 lower mag and then zoom in for higher mags....Move camera for final focus. Use typically f20 to f22 aperture. set flash to ETTL or use manual and back off to 1/2 power. ISO 100 and shutter speed 250 check exposure for your particular set up and then go for the bug or whatever subject you intend to shoot....Flash must be out at end of lens with bracket and off camera flash chord.... I will be happy to go head to head with you anytime you like.... I have been posting results and have a based in fact How to set up and shoot the rev 50 stack and I am constaantly helping shooters get dialed in with the set up.... I have the track record and have confirmation of the results..... This is why I wrote a How to in the first place....It was requested and I was constantly being asked how I was getting the results and how to do it..... I was asked and delivered....You just burst on the scene as a self proclaimed authority..... To support my claim look at my work...For more complete info look in the how to section here or Fred Miranda, or The World Photography Forum, or The Photography Forum....Look at the posts the How to sections and the responses by many very good shooters in regards to my posted shots and then lets see your credentials or demonstrated results to be teaching .....Once again share your excitement of the new set up. If there is interest based on the displayed results you get the photographers will ask how it is done...Believe me I have been there....When it is obvious it is an area of great interest then sharing the how to will be a time saver to help in the amount of posts, emails, and PM's you will be trying to keep up with. You are in the company of some very fine macro shooters here... You have to earn respect to be an accepted authority...You can't demand the respect and have nothing to back it up ...In your case a well exposed sharp focused, set of eyes....That is a good example of "Extreme Macro" and especially if it is full frame... Be proud of that shot...I would be happy to call that one mine...
Here is a Midge, also known as a No Seeum The size of a speck of dust. shot with 70-200 rev 50 full frame...Do that with the rev 28 direct...

piss ant shot with a sugar granule for size reference



Spider face

Another Midge No Seeum

I have thousands of shots demonstrating the worthiness of this set up.... I can speak of it with authority because it is accepted that I know how to use it.... Not by me but by the responses and admiration of my peers....
This is high mag macro done with a very capable set up...One that you condemned. What you are offering is a worthy bit of information...Share what you learn with it. Don't enter forget about it responses in areas you have yet to fully explore with claims that they don't work...
This is all I will offer and then just let you stand on your performance record and hope that any views you represent are actually proven and not inaccurate information....That in no way serves your fellow photographers and defeats the purpose of educating.....Alex
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Last edited by Alex Paul : 15th of November 2006 (Wed) at 08:35.
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Old 15th of November 2006 (Wed)   #12
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Default Re: eXtreme reverse lens macro with a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD Mount Lens! -> PIcs

nice bug shots... i'll pick up a 52/58mm adapter and try out your suggestion as far as stacking again. I also noticed that the edges are a lot softer on my attempts. They are certianly still soft reversed, but it was pretty bad with the stacked lenses.

Other than that... all I gotta say if you are taking this whole thing WAYY to seriously.... SERIOUSLY. Who cares if anyone is an "authority" or "has forum respect" - I don't! Ok, you are THE authority - HA! I dont know you - you dont know me - I'll never meet anyone from this forum face to face - we'll never get famous talking smack on a macro thread about how great and authoritative we are.
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Old 15th of November 2006 (Wed)   #13
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Default Re: eXtreme reverse lens macro with a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD Mount Lens! -> PIcs

You are alright in my book....Really the condemning the stack system got my goat as I know it to work very well.... I never profess to be an expert at anything. If I am told I am good at something by many people doing the same thing then at some point I accept that I might be getting it right.. I like you share what I discover works well...I am also careful not to go outside my area of expertise.... I really don't like flames either... BTW That eye shot was a saweeeet one..
Your set up is very capable and frankly a joy to use.... I have gotten some very nice shots with them and love the additional working space. I am spoiled by higher mag shooting and so it just no longer quenches my thirst; For a quick, light and easy set up to grab and use in the field it is a joy to use....Just ain't the only act in town .... Have fun... Be careful....Glad we had a chance to have this little chat .....Alex
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Old 15th of November 2006 (Wed)   #14
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Default Re: eXtreme reverse lens macro with a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD Mount Lens! -> PIcs

enuf said...
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Old 15th of November 2006 (Wed)   #15
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Default Re: eXtreme reverse lens macro with a Quantaray 28mm F/2.8 FD Mount Lens! -> PIcs

Agreed .... Have fun....and keep the updates coming....Take care.....Alex
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