Can I shoot a gig with an F4L and 580EX? Please help

[rammy]

Hi,

I'm more of a landscape/city person and a friend has asked me to shoot their band in January. Eek! I agreed to do this but I don't want to mess it up for her

I have two F4L's the 17-40 and the 24-105. I also have the 55-200 mkII but I doubt I will use this as I will be very close to the stage, or will i need it? I don't have anything faster The setting is a club with usual ambient light and stage lighting, I'm not sure if any of the light will focus directly on the band. I may or may not be able to use the flash unit.

At the moment, I am praying that high ISO (maybe 400-800) and the 24-105 with IS on will save the day. Will this work, has anyone please done anything similar with a relatively slow lens set?

I've read loads from Dwight McCann's threads and other good concert peeps BUT they use an F2.8!

Please help with some advice regarding what white balance I need, how I can keep noise levels low and how I can "freeze" shots without too much movement; I will certainly be posting results.

Thanks very much
Ram.

[Jim G]

Well... it really depends on the lighting wherever they're playing but the best lighting around here (largest live venue pub in the largest non-capital city in Australia - NOT something like an entertainment centre where the lighting is better but the best lighting out of all the pubs around here) means I can get away with ISO 1600, f/2.8 and 1/100 shutter speed... drop the shutter speed much more than that and camera shake won't be the problem - performer movement will. IS won't help at all there. If you pick your moments when they're not moving too much I've gotten away with sharp 1/30 shots before without too much difficulty but if they move around at all it can be quite hard...

If you're shooting somewhere with awesome lighting f/4 will be usable but I don't know about ISO 400 with that.. unless it's really bright lighting. They have brief moments of bright light at the pub I mentioned above where I get 1/2000s, f/2, ISO 1600 but they don't seem to keep those on for more than a couple of seconds at a time... probably due to the heat and discomfort it may cause the performers.

This is just from my experience so take it as you will Any idea just how bright the lighting is at venue they're playing at? Have you considered renting/purchasing a fast prime if it's going to be dark? You could always go to the venue ahead of time and sus out what kind of lighting you can get away with...

If you're allowed to use flash you could always give that a shot but personally I find that it washes out all the ambient lighting and the pictures just don't look as good.. and too many flash shots gets annoying

++ just noticed some more questions at the end of your post.. I got lost in answering the other stuff.

Use the most specific metering you can get which I'm guessing is partial with the 300D.. I'm not that familiar with that camera though. Meter off the performers skin, probably their face - the background should be nice and dark then and they'll be nicely exposed. Noise is always less if you get the exposure right in the first place... I always shoot RAW for the white balance as it would be impossible (at least for me, I can't see how you could do it) to manually adjust to the white balance differences brought on by rapidly changing lighting on-stage... shoot RAW and adjust in post-processing. If you absolutely have to you can underexpose to get the shutter speeds you need and bring it up in RAW later but be prepared for possibly horrible noise.

[rammy]

Originally Posted by Jim G

Have you considered renting/purchasing a fast prime if it's going to be dark? You could always go to the venue ahead of time and sus out what kind of lighting you can get away with...

Thanks Jim, I have started to look at the primes, would you recommend a 50 F1.4 or a 100 F2.8? I would lean towards the 100mm as it give me more flexibiity with distance as I cannot guarantee exact closeness.

I cannot go to the venue and source their lighting effects, I will ask Hayley tomo if she has played at venue before and lighting she expects.

I read a post by Tim who posted a link to here: http://photo.net/learn/concerts/mirarchi/concer_1.htm

And there is so much to think about in taking the right shots and atmosphere that I think I may not use the flash anyway.

[tim]

http://photo.net/learn/concerts/mirarchi/concer_1.htm

[rammy]

Thanks Tim, I spotted, and read, that link in a previous post. What I am "hoping" is that someone can give me advice with using an F4 but from your link and Jim's comments looks like I need faster glass such as an F2.8 or faster, without using flash to ruin the atmosphere Do I have to though, is that my only option?

[Jim G]

Well it's impossible to say whether you absolutely won't be able to use an f/4 lens - the lighting might be great and you may not have any problems or it might be awful and a 2.8 lens would struggle.

I use a 50mm 1.4 for all of my live music work (as my money is tied up in other things until next year..) and I get some very good results with that. Highly recommended for this sort of thing though it depends on how close you'll be to the stage and how big the stage is. I'd purchase or hire a 50mm 1.4 and take it along with the rest of your f/4 kit.. if f/4 is usable that way you'd be able to leave it for the most part and if it isn't you have a usable backup.

As to whether it's your only option or not.. well.. if the lighting isn't very bright and you need at least a certain shutter speed you either have to have a wider aperture, a higher ISO or more light from another source. If you're not going to use flash that leaves a higher ISO or wider aperture...


++ As for advice with shooting with f/4.. well it's the same as f/2.8 except that you'll have to deal with half the shutter speed or twice the ISO you would otherwise have.

[PhotosGuy]

Q & A: Dwight McCann (Event Photography)

[rammy]

Thanks Jim for the info and points on using an F4, I think I will try and hire some lenses as this is my first convert/gig and my not become a norm.

Thanks PhotosGuy for link, very interesting read. I am concerned about noise, ISO 1600 on the 300D is terrible IMHO and 800 isn't that good either. Dwight does seem to shoot around the 800 mark although I suspect his 1D is much better at high ISO noise.

I went to the British Museum and the Natural History Museum in UK and shooting at around 800-1600 ISO, I felt quite disappointed wih the results of my 24-105 at F4 with IS on Probably more the camera body I would suspect.

I'll post the gig pictures, which is in Feb next year.

Thanks.

[René Damkot]

Originally Posted by rammy

I am concerned about noise, ISO 1600 on the 300D is terrible IMHO and 800 isn't that good either. Dwight does seem to shoot around the 8000 mark although I suspent his 1D is much better at high ISO noise.

The 1DMk2 is a lot better then the 300D. I went from a 10D to a 1D2, and I'd say the noise is about the same if the cameras are at a stop different ISO. (ISO 1600 on a 1D2 compares to ISO 800 on a 10D)

Don't be too scared to use ISO 1600 if you have to. IMHO it's better to have a shot that's a bit noisey, then one that's unusable because of motion blur / camera shake.

Have a look at this thread. Might be interesting.

[Mike Philippens]

I use my 1D to shoot concerts and without Noise Ninja I cannot use above ISO400. I do have some faster lenses (2.8) but - and it's all depending on light - I do have some shots where I use F4 or higher. Every gig is different so you can't expect a silver bullet from anyone here. I can tell you what I do to get decent piccies and in the end you'll just have to try some of the things you read here.

I think you could use up to ISO 800 without real problems. The better exposed your photo is, the less the noise will be. But you could start off with ISO400 and see what the results are. And you should shoot RAW. I only shoot RAW in difficult lightning situations. It just gives you some more room to play.

Camera settings: Manual is the only way to shoot concerts, because the meter won't understand a thing about the situation. The 300D doesn't have spot (?), so set the meter to partial. You can at least get a reading of your subject and get an idea of the exposure. Dial the flash exposure compensation back to -1 3/4 to -2. And mount a diffuser cap, point the flash to the front or a little bit up (usually, there's nothing to bounce off).
I don't know what kind of band it is, but I did shoot some metal trash band recently and for a really fanatic guitar player it's nice to take a few shots at 1/60 or even 1/50 to get some movement in the hands. Otherwise you get pictures of the famous band 'The Frozen Man', and they're not exiting at all...

Try to stay away from overview shots. They're boring. Zoom in on singer's head in interesting pose, guitar players etc...

Hope this helps.

[blackshadow]

Originally Posted by rammy

I have started to look at the primes, would you recommend a 50 F1.4 or a 100 F2.8?

The 50 1.4 is an awesome lens for shooting gigs - for a prime I doubt I would be looking at the 1002.8 - the ones I would look at in addition to the 50 1.4 are the 85mm f1.8 or the Sigma 30mm f1.4.

If you are looking at an f2.8 look at a zoom - the Canon 24-70 f2.8L is my main concert lens and occasionally I use my 70-200 f2.8L - it's awesome at biggers shows/venues and festivals.

Also, I rarely shoot less than 1600 ISO for live shows (occasionally 800) - I think I have used flash on one band out of about 200 shot this year in venues ranging from tiny pubs with terrible lighting to full blown stadium shows. 99% of the time flash destroys the atmosphere of a live show (even if you use a diffuser and back the flash off).

I disagree with Mike's comment about using Manual for shooting gigs; the lighting and action are usually happening far too quickly - I stick to Av.

[liza]

I used a 100 f/2 to shoot a concert and was very pleased with its performance in low light. And I typically use Manual to shoot concerts (and everything else).

[René Damkot]

A few things I disagree with....

Originally Posted by Mike Philippens

I use my 1D to shoot concerts and without Noise Ninja I cannot use above ISO400

Either your exposure is way off, or you are a lot more fussy about noise then I am. I shot with a 1D(mk1) at ISO1600, without NR.
small image

Originally Posted by Mike Philippens

Camera settings: Manual is the only way to shoot concerts, because the meter won't understand a thing about the situation. The 300D doesn't have spot (?), so set the meter to partial. You can at least get a reading of your subject and get an idea of the exposure. Dial the flash exposure compensation back to -1 3/4 to -2. And mount a diffuser cap, point the flash to the front or a little bit up (usually, there's nothing to bounce off).

I use Av / evaluative metering /EC about 80% of the time. Trick is to know your camera well enough to know how it's going to react in a certain situation.
Manual is pretty useless if light is changing very fast.
Flash is a No-no IMHO. I only use it if I absolutely can't do without.

Originally Posted by Mike Philippens

Try to stay away from overview shots. They're boring. Zoom in on singer's head in interesting pose, guitar players etc...

Depends on the shot. An overview can be interesting if something is happening, just as a headshot can be boring. Take both, and see what suits you.

[Mike Philippens]

Originally Posted by René Damkot

Trick is to know your camera well enough to know how it's going to react in a certain situation.

That's why I shoot manual. That way I decide what happens.

The fact that some people disagree with my method just shows that your mileage may vary. The way I work I get the results I want, so...

And about flash I totally disagree with people who keep insisting that you blow away atmosphere when using flash. If done properly (I'm not always there) you won't notice. It takes practice.

[edit]About the noise: that picture shows that there was some good light. If there is enough light, you won't have that much noise. Every gig has different light. You won't be able to produce such a smooth picture when only the singer has some light on him (spotlight) and the rest is bathing in red or blue light. The shadow areas will be one big noise-fest. That's why I try to compensate with a little bit of fill flash. Not always, and never too much. The same goes for using Av. When there is enough light, it's ok. But when there are just a few spotlights on some of the bandmembers, the camera metering is not always right and once in a while comes up with 1 second. I prevent this by working in M, use spotmetering and keeping an eye on the meter, use my experience and adjust the shutter speed/aperture on the fly. Obviously, when there is enough light, I sometimes set the camera to Av or even P...

I did not try to lay down the laws of photography, but merely give some tips for the very poor lighting situations. Top acts tend to have very good light, but the lessers gods have either way too much of way to little...

[René Damkot]

Originally Posted by Mike Philippens

If done properly (I'm not always there) you won't notice. It takes practice.

I know, and do use flash if I have to. Sometimes you simply can't do without. The 'spotlight scenario' you mention is a good example.
However, the light will still be coming from the camera, and even when done right, it still looks like flash. Better lighting would have looked better. Example here.
Also, IMO flash can be very annoying to the band and audience when used often, so I tend to minimise the use of it.