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Thread started 27 Mar 2007 (Tuesday) 19:25
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STICKY: Color problems? [work in progress?]

 
René ­ Damkot
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Mar 27, 2007 19:25 |  #1

Thought I'd write up a single, rather long post, to keep my postcount within limits, and get some links grouped together ;)

Do you see a difference between Photoshop and another program? Likely this has something to do with (the other program not using) colormagement...

For starters: Check whether the other program is color managed.
AFAIK, Windows explorer is not (before Vista, that is), Windows Picture and Fax Viewer is "half" colormanaged AFAIK (It will honour an image's ICC profile but not the monitor's), ACDSee (non Pro) is not, Breeze Browser is not, iView Media (non pro) is not, iPhoto is not (not sure about newer versions).
A lot of web browser (anything on Windows, all but Safari and IE (when set) on OSX) do not use color management.
FireFox 3 can be set to color manage, and does so better then Safari (external link). Highly recommended!

Not sure about your browser? Try it here (external link) or here (external link), or more dramatically: Here (external link)

If you are using a working color space other then sRGB, the differences can be quite shocking.
So, if you don't know a thing about color management, you might want to stick to sRGB. (Or learn a bit about color management)

First off: there will *allways* be a (slight) difference between a non color managed application and PS, even displaying an sRGB file: That's the difference between your display profile and the sRGB standard.
If you are comparing an image with a different working space then sRGB (AdobeRGB or ProfotoRGB for instance), you'll see a*huge* mismatch.

The only 'solution' is to not use colormangement in PS (set 'Monitor Color' in PS color prefs). That throws color management out the window. Not a good solution IMHO: No way of telling what your image looks like on any other monitor or in print.... For more or less the same reason: *never, ever* use your monitor profile as working space!

What works better, is to get a basic understanding of color management, and set up everything correctly.

To do that, first check your monitor profile: Go to this page (external link) by Norman Koren. Scroll down, there are a few quick tests to see if your monitor is profiled more or less okay...
If your monitor profile is corrupt, something like this might happen. (The solution was found at last: click)
(Another Check here (external link))

A few links on monitor calibration can be found in this post by PhotosGuy.

Calibrating dual monitors can be done, depending on calibrator, video card and OS.
For windows look here (external link)

Test images for LCD screens can be found here (external link).

Easiest way to get your monitor calibrated, is by buying a calibrating device. Lots of them availiable. Search for Eye One, Monaco Optix, Colorvision Spider, Pantone Huey, to name a few. Another (cheaper) option would be to use something like Adobe Gamma: Click (external link)

Another option:

Tdragone wrote:
Borrowlenses.com (Out of San Francisco in the US) now rents out the Spyder calibration system for US$20.00 for a 1 week rental.

http://www.borrowlense​s.com ...ories/monitor_calib​ration (external link)

If your monitor is (more or less) calibrated, and you're still "seeing problems", it might be time to dive a bit into Color Mangement.


Start off (after calibrating your monitor) by setting Photoshops color settings something like this (click image to enlarge):

IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/color/PSCS2Color_tmb.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: http://www.moonglade.n​et ...POTN/color/PSCS2Col​or.jpg] (external link)

The 'RGB Working space' is a case of personal preference. (Also take a look at the "sRGB or AdobeRGB" links at the bottom of this post!)
As long as the color management policies are set like this, most problems will be avoided. (Or at least you'll get notified that there is a potential problem)

If you use DPP, be sure to set the monitor profile. (the program is too stupid to figure it out for itself ;))
(Edit: Latest version (windows) seems to have the option to set it so the 'system profile' is used)
IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/color/DPP-color_tmb.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: http://www.moonglade.n​et ...OTN/color/DPP%20col​or.jpg] (external link)

Again, work color space is personal preference, but it would make most sense to use the same working space as in PS...

When converting a file, make sure to embed the profile. In DPP (or whatever Raw converter of choice might be): tick the checkbox:
IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/color/DPP-profile_tmb.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: http://www.moonglade.n​et ...N/color/DPP%20profi​le.jpg] (external link)


If you shoot jpg, the profile will allready be in the file.

Now, if your default working space is not sRGB, you'll get lousy display in a non color managed application (like most web browsers) if you don't convert to sRGB before saving an image for web.

Unfortunately, "Save for web" does not do this all by itself... (Edit: CS3 and CS4 offer the option)
I find it easiest to make a keyboard shortcut for it for single images: (I use an action when I'm doing a lot)
IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/color/PSCS2-keyboard-tmb.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: http://www.moonglade.n​et ...0keyboard%20shortcu​ts.jpg] (external link)

Alternatively, go Edit > Convert to profile (PSCS2) or Image > Mode > Convert to profile (PSCS). Don't know for sure where it is on other versions, but probabely one of these two...

When converting from, say AdobeRGB to sRGB, the colors should not change (by much). Only colors that are out of sRGB Gamut (like very saturated greens) change a bit, depending on rendering intent used. (see link on the bottom of this page)

Note that there is also an option "Assign Profile". Do not use that. The *only* time you assign a profile, is when the document doesn't have one embedded. And if the document doesn't have an embedded profile, someone (likely you) made an error...
(That's why the warning boxes in the PS CM settings are ticked)

Next, make sure WYSIWYG in the 'Save for web' window, or just use "Save as" and keep the EXIF in the image (Which I prefer)
IMAGE: http://www.moonglade.net/rene/POTN/color/PSCS2-save-for-web_tmb.jpg
[IMAGE'S LINK: http://www.moonglade.n​et ...S2%20save%20for%20w​eb.jpg] (external link)

Note this is the setting I use, because I use Safari, which is color managed. If you want to see what a non color managed browser looks like, you need to select 'Uncompensated Color'. This will show you what the jpg will look like in a non color managed app. The colors in the document are not affected however (they are the same as the original when viewed in a color managed app)... Logical annit.

Regardless of the method used for saving an image, IMHO a profile should always be embedded, if only for those of us using Safari for browsing, or for later, correct viewing in a color managed application..

Some general CM links: (hey, at least now I can find them back :lol:)

The ultimate resource: Bruce Fraser (external link)
The most recommended book about Color Management. (external link) By Bruce Fraser.
Canon article about Color Management (external link), part two (external link).
Reviews of equipment (external link) like Monitor & printer profilers.
'Favourite CM links (external link) in the Digital Outback Photo Forums.
Colour Management. (external link). as explained by Cambridge In Colour
Color Management (external link). Yet another site.
What Norman Koren (external link) has to say on Color Management.
Color remedies (external link): links and articles
Information on Profiles (external link) from the ICC
Wide Open (color) Spaces (external link); Bruce Fraser
Digital Dog (external link); lots of good pdf files
Color Management and Your Display. (external link) by Andrew Rodney
Color Management Myths (external link) Read all 28 of them!


Color space conversion and rendering intents:

What Rendering Intent to use? (external link)
Color space conversion & Rendering intent (external link)
A graphic explanation of Rendering intent (external link)
Another link about Rendering Intent. (external link)
Out of Gamut: Realizing Good Intentions with Rendering Intents (external link)
Color Management Myths (external link): Sometimes Perceptual isn't perceptual


Color spaces and working space:

ICC site (external link)
sRGB or Adobe RGB (external link). Why sRGB might be a better choice sometimes.
Another link about sRGB vs. Adobe (external link), with some 'real life' examples.
sRGB or Adobe RGB (external link). Same story, also about 8 vs. 16 bit.
What about ProPhoto RGB? (external link)
A bit more on ProPhotoRGB, to help understanding some problems. (external link)
Why ProPhotoRGB might not be best. (external link)
A few more spaces (external link) by HutchColor
Info on working spaces, (external link) including graphic representations.
UPDIG guidlines (external link)
Interactive graphic representations of color spaces. (external link)

Misc. programs & links

A pdf (external link) about color management in Lightroom.

A bit more on Color management and web browsers (external link)
A few images to test the monitor. (external link)
A DAM comparison (external link)
What Monitor Calibrator? (external link)
Shootsmarter on Monitor Calibration (external link) (Also a few further links, which require logging in)
Another site on Monitor Calibration. (external link)
DryCreek Photo on Monitor Calibrating and Profiling (external link)
A thread explaining the difference between calibrating and profiling of a monitor. (Yes I've very probabely used the word 'calibrating' a few times where I should have said 'profiling'.)

Printing?

Post at the end of this thread, concerning soft proofing.

Softproofing (external link) as explained on LL.
Very nice first part of a video tutorial (external link) on LL
Softproofing (external link) as explained by Bruce Fraser
And another explanation. (external link)

How to use ICC Printer Profiles (external link)
Using Printer Profiles with Digital Labs (external link)

On printing and profiles with Canon printers
Downloadable profiles for higher end Canon printers (external link)
Softproofing and Printing with an Epson 3800 (external link).
CS3, OSX and CM printing (external link).
Some test images. (external link)
PDF by Adobe (external link)about a Color managed workflow.
A whole load of PDFs (external link) on the XRite site, explaining Workflows - Using Profiles with Third-Party Applications.
The color management chain (external link) by Gballard
HP and OSX (external link)
HP and Windows (external link)


If anyone wants to add: Please do...

"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
Color Problems? Click here.
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PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

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tim
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Mar 27, 2007 19:44 |  #2

Rene, great idea. I find it very difficult to read though, your later pictures are wide so to read each line I have to scroll the screen back and forth. I'd suggest making the images smaller, or linking to them instead, perhaps with thumbnails.

I can proof read it for you once I can see it properly, if you like.


Professional wedding photographer, solution architect and general technical guy with multiple Amazon Web Services certifications.
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PacAce
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Mar 27, 2007 20:06 |  #3

Good stuff, Rene. I'll sticky this thread and also include a link to it in the FAQ thread. :)


...Leo

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René ­ Damkot
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Mar 27, 2007 20:26 |  #4

Done, never thought about thumbs :oops: Better?
Looks like my screen is bigger then yours Tim :lol:
If you want to proof read: Yes please!


"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
Color Problems? Click here.
MySpaceexternal link
Get Colormanagedexternal link
Twitterexternal link
PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

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tim
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Mar 28, 2007 02:45 |  #5

All I have is a little 19" LCD :p

That all looks good, though personally for people who don't know anything about color I recommend sRgb, just because it's generally more compatible. I might also mention something about the difference between embedded and converting. I'd probably also link directly to Bruce's bookexternal link.


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Read all my FAQs (wedding, printing, lighting, books, etc)

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René ­ Damkot
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Mar 28, 2007 06:28 |  #6

Done.


"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
Color Problems? Click here.
MySpaceexternal link
Get Colormanagedexternal link
Twitterexternal link
PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

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In2Photos
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Mar 28, 2007 07:51 as a reply to René Damkot's post |  #7

Good stuff Rene. I am slowly making my way through Fraser's book but I will definitely use this as a resource until I understand this stuff completely.


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Current Gear and Feedback| My Pbase Galleryexternal link | mdsportsphoto.comexternal linkhttp://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=835433

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cosworth
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Mar 29, 2007 14:45 |  #8

I have a couple examples of why you need to convert to profile after you've calibrated your monitor.

Since I'm a PC user my browser IE7 (or so I thought) didn't do much with colour management.

You may or may not see colour differences here. But as a Winblows user I do.

IMAGE NOT FOUND IMAGE IS A REDIRECT OR MISSING!
HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'text/html' | Byte size: ZERO

IMAGE NOT FOUND IMAGE IS A REDIRECT OR MISSING!
HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'text/html' | Byte size: ZERO

IMAGE NOT FOUND IMAGE IS A REDIRECT OR MISSING!
HTTP response: 404 | MIME changed to 'text/html' | Byte size: ZERO

people will always try to stop you doing the right thing if it is unconventional
Full frame and some primes.

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René ­ Damkot
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Mar 30, 2007 05:27 |  #9

The last image is ProPhotoRGB without a profile I'd think...
Nice example.


"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
Color Problems? Click here.
MySpaceexternal link
Get Colormanagedexternal link
Twitterexternal link
PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

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tim
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Mar 30, 2007 07:44 |  #10

René Damkot wrote in post #2954211external link
The last image is ProPhotoRGB without a profile I'd think...
Nice example.

Agreed, doesn't make a lot of sense to me otherwise.


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cosworth
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Mar 30, 2007 17:18 |  #11

I double checked, it was saved with sRGB, not ProPhoto. No ICC profile included.


people will always try to stop you doing the right thing if it is unconventional
Full frame and some primes.

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René ­ Damkot
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Mar 31, 2007 08:15 |  #12

On my color managed browser (Safari) the first two (with profile) look identical. The last one is obviously off.
In Firefox, the first two look different from Safari, but the Prophoto RGB image looks the same as the one without a profile.
Like in the first attachment (where I turned CM off on pprgb.jpg)

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"I think the idea of art kills creativity" - Douglas Adams
Why Color Management.
Color Problems? Click here.
MySpaceexternal link
Get Colormanagedexternal link
Twitterexternal link
PERSONAL MESSAGING REGARDING SELLING OR BUYING ITEMS WITH MEMBERS WHO HAVE NO POSTS IN FORUMS AND/OR WHO YOU DO NOT KNOW FROM FORUMS IS HEREBY DECLARED STRICTLY STUPID AND YOU WILL GET BURNED.

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StealthLude
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Apr 02, 2007 17:05 |  #13

thanks for making this a sticky, its always nice to have something to use and go back to for refrence.


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TMR ­ Design
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Apr 07, 2007 08:34 as a reply to StealthLude's post |  #14

Thank you René,

Color managment is a confusing and ongoing problem for many people. Thanks for creating this thread. Many will benefit from it.


Robert
RobertMitchellPhotogra​phy (external link)

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Jaythan
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Apr 26, 2007 13:38 |  #15

I stopped trying to fix my problem after a lot of tries. This was about four months ago, and I don't remember what exactly I did, so I am hoping you guys can guide me to what settings to use, and if they look ok on your end.

BTW, I'm using a MacBook with an uncalibrated lcd.

Here are a few screen caps:

Photoshop on the left, Camino (mac web browser) on the right.

IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/cl_jay/comparison.jpg

These are the settings I used to save the pic for the web
IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/cl_jay/8bit.jpg

IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/cl_jay/assignprofile.jpg

IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/cl_jay/converttoprofile.jpg

IMAGE: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v310/cl_jay/saveoptions.jpg

Hope you guys can help. Thanks.



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Color problems? [work in progress?]
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