Track & Field-Absolutely Failure-case study please

[Galaxy99]

I wanna be a better sports shooter. But my experience with Track & Field totally disapointed myself badly. My pictures are not even close to those pictures others posted here. I like to humbly to put my bad shots here and learn from those who had good experience with Track & Field shooting.

Equipment & Setting:

400D, 70-200 f/2.8L @ 200mm, ISO 400, F/3.5, 1/1000, AI SERVO (Center AF point; cover right on the chest of the runner)

That's what I got. 95% of my shots are like that "OOF"!!! It is defintely not the color of the runner's cloth messing up w/ focus cuz those who wore stronger contrast color uniforms got the same OOF from me.

I know if I had a 1D, i might get better result. I am waiting for mark 3 and go lunchless for 3 years. But other than that, do I still have any hope?

[sandpiper]

It looks like a combination of the 400D's AI servo not being very fast and a DOF problem.

My 20D suffers a similar problem with AI servo and fast moving targets, particularly coming straight at the camera, it just doesn't work quickly enough to keep up. My 5D, which has a faster AF system, has a much greater success rate. The 5D actually tracked and kept a stooping falcon in the zone recently, something I know would have just returned a series of blurry blobs if tried with the 20D. So your 400D is probably lagging too much as it checks the distance, adjusts the focus then takes the shot - by which time the runner has moved closer.

You are almost wide open so DOF is going to be extremely shallow, which exacerbates the problem, a deeper DOF would increase the chance of the runner still being in the zone when the camera actually takes the shot.

Options to try:

Higher ISO to allow a smaller aperture and more DOF. May be noisy on the 400D though as it doesn't have great high ISO performance.

Predictive manual focusing (focus on a known point and shoot when the runner reaches that point). Takes practise though and shallow DOF is still a problem as timing becomes critical.

Shoot from a different angle, side on and panned keeps the changing distance to the runner much less, so AF can keep up easier.

Experiment and practise with a combination of the above. Different techniques suit different people, so play around with ideas and see what works for you.

[cdifoto]

Even my 30D didn't hit well on stuff coming straight at me fast. It seems to be just the way it is when shooting at wide apertures with anything less than a 1 series in the Canon lineup.

I would do as sandpiper says: stop down. You have PLENTY of light. You don't even need 1/1000th. You can at least go ~f/5.6 and ~1/500th. Or up the ISO to 800 and give yourself ~f/8*


*I think I have my apertures/math correct. Someone else can come along and tell me I'm way off, if I'm way off.

[csjonesv1]

hi iv just started to have a go at athletics and the settings you are using are very much like my settings. my settings are iso 400 ( wearther bad) 200 if weather is good and i use the centre focus point and i try to get a apeture of 6.2 you dont say if you shoot at more than one frame a second i shoot at max setting 5 frames ect i found when shooting a burst with my 1dmk2 some times the first shots were soft but the second third shots got better and allways use a monopod i do . if you like iv got some pics on my website from yesterdays AAA meeting at northwood stadium


www.flickr.com/photos/csjones/

my gear i use
1dmk2
3002.8is
monopod
centre point focus
ap mode target f6-f8
iso work with the light go up from 200 to what is needed
clean up noise in neatimage
max settings on film advance ie my speed 5 frames +


this meeting was the third time iv ever done this sort of photogrphy and you will very quickly pick it up just think about each shot before you even try to get a picture hope this helps


chris

[pt_n_costa]

i was having the same type of problem with my focus and did some reading on here.. there were a couple of people who say to use ai focus instead since it does the same as ai servo.. for me it was a change of speed in my target so i don't know if it will apply for you but it's worth a try.. i've since going to manual focus and after about 3 sessions am now getting better focus results with manual. may want to give that a try as well.
good luck with it and enjoy it.
just my 2 cents

[sobad]

I had my first go at the long jump pit this weekend also. Of course these kids are a lot slower than what you are shooting and my 70-300 Sigma is nowhere near as nice as your 70-200. Check it out.

[photosbylisa]

Originally Posted by csjonesv1

hi iv just started to have a go at athletics and the settings you are using are very much like my settings. my settings are iso 400 ( wearther bad) 200 if weather is good and i use the centre focus point and i try to get a apeture of 6.2 you dont say if you shoot at more than one frame a second i shoot at max setting 5 frames ect i found when shooting a burst with my 1dmk2 some times the first shots were soft but the second third shots got better and allways use a monopod i do . if you like iv got some pics on my website from yesterdays AAA meeting at northwood stadium


www.flickr.com/photos/csjones/

my gear i use
1dmk2
3002.8is
monopod
centre point focus
ap mode target f6-f8
iso work with the light go up from 200 to what is needed
clean up noise in neatimage
max settings on film advance ie my speed 5 frames +


this meeting was the third time iv ever done this sort of photogrphy and you will very quickly pick it up just think about each shot before you even try to get a picture hope this helps


chris

I just checked out your photos and they look wonderful! I am having the hardest time with my kids sports Right now I am trying to capture their soccer games and I am failing miserably!

It's very hard because I have a portrait business (kids, families, seniors) and I feel like such a failure at sports! Also no help when all of the parents expect me to be taking prize winning photos of these kids because I am a photographer! I'm pulling my hair out. My photos look like galaxy99

I shoot w/ the 30D and was using a tamron 28-300 lens I just got this lens which doesn't have IS so I thought maybe it was that...but even less than 100mm I'm still not in focus.

I try to keep my ss at 1/400 and shoot mostly in bright bright sun. So, perhaps it's my settings (how in the world to you KNOW what you should be shooting at at less desireable conditions ie; full sun no shade

Also, I was shooting with one shot focus...not AIfocus or AIservo Would that help?

I want to get this right! I will follow this thread in hopes of gaining some information! Thanks for letting me rant! And sorry to hijack....it's just that these are my exact problems as well.

[Clark]

Originally Posted by photosbylisa

I just checked out your photos and they look wonderful! I am having the hardest time with my kids sports Right now I am trying to capture their soccer games and I am failing miserably!

It's very hard because I have a portrait business (kids, families, seniors) and I feel like such a failure at sports! Also no help when all of the parents expect me to be taking prize winning photos of these kids because I am a photographer! I'm pulling my hair out. My photos look like galaxy99

I shoot w/ the 30D and was using a tamron 28-300 lens I just got this lens which doesn't have IS so I thought maybe it was that...but even less than 100mm I'm still not in focus.

I try to keep my ss at 1/400 and shoot mostly in bright bright sun. So, perhaps it's my settings (how in the world to you KNOW what you should be shooting at at less desireable conditions ie; full sun no shade

Also, I was shooting with one shot focus...not AIfocus or AIservo Would that help?

I want to get this right! I will follow this thread in hopes of gaining some information! Thanks for letting me rant! And sorry to hijack....it's just that these are my exact problems as well.

For moving subjects you need AI servo, one shot will get blurry pics.
I shoot with a 30D also, I shot 297 pictures at district track yesterday and had one OOF. Also you may want to look at using CF 4-1 to use the * button to focus with. It takes some getting used to but now I love it.

[pagnamenta]

I shoot a 30D with 70-200 f2.8. I find it best to use CF 4-3. I always keep the camera in Al Servo mode so that when the object is in focus, I can just let go of the focus button and snap the shot without changing the focus.

On the sports shots, whether it is track or soccer, I use all the AF points to track focus. I shoot with a narrow DOF, usually 2.8-3.5 and I get many more keepers with all the AF points, rather than the center AF point.

Galaxy99, your lighting seems really harsh. I would have lowered the aperture to something like f5.6 and shot from there.

[photosbylisa]

Originally Posted by Clark

For moving subjects you need AI servo, one shot will get blurry pics.
I shoot with a 30D also, I shot 297 pictures at district track yesterday and had one OOF. Also you may want to look at using CF 4-1 to use the * button to focus with. It takes some getting used to but now I love it.

Wow, only 1 OOF? I would do handsprings for that! I'll try using the backfocus....I have a friend who uses that at all times....I'll give it a whirl and definitely not shoot one shot focus next saturday.

[sandpiper]

Originally Posted by photosbylisa

I just got this lens which doesn't have IS so I thought maybe it was that...but even less than 100mm I'm still not in focus.

Also, I was shooting with one shot focus...not AIfocus or AIservo Would that help?

IS is a wonderful invention, I love it a lot and it is extremely useful in many situations. Sports however isn't one of them, generally speaking. IS simply allows you to use a slower shutter speed without camera shake, as the requirement in this field is more to stop action and avoid motion blur, IS won't help as you need a faster shutter speed to do that and camera shake isn't as much of an issue. So don't worry about not having IS, that has nothing to do with focusing issues.

I would use AI servo (AI focus is a waste of space IMO, it simply lets the camera try and decide whether to use one shot or servo, you are best deciding for yourself), however I have had issues with my 20D struggling in that mode (with fast moving subjects) and sometimes refusing to fire as it is too busy trying to adjust the focus, so it stutters and shoots when it thinks it has focus, rather than when I press the shutter. My 5D works seamlessly in AI servo. Because of the tracking problem with the 20D (due to the slower AF) I often use manual focus or occasionally one-shot and take single frames. Be sure not to half press the release though and then shoot as it will have locked focus too soon and you will get an OOF result. To be honest, don't expect much from one shot in situations with a subject moving towards you, it works reasonably well with a subject travelling left-right for example (but so should servo).

As for settings, that depends on what you want to achieve in the result. Basic photographic understanding of how altering various settings affects the results is necessary, but I presume you know these things, so analyse your results to determine the problem and decide what you need to change to solve each problem.

Don't be despondent because you can't match csjonesv1's work. He is using a 1DII which is purpose designed for just this work, and has the best AF system on the market (at least until the mkIIIs hit the market). The 400D & 30D are aimed at the general marketplace, mainly snapshooters, and are equipped accordingly, down to a price rather than up to a top specification. That's not to say they won't take great pictures, they do, but when in trickier situations the systems aren't always up to the job, compared to the more expensive cameras (5D, 1D). That is why they cost less of course.

You can get good sport shots with these cameras but have to work within the limitations of the body, shooting from the side rather than head on for instance, to minimise the strain on the AF system. As above, try and maximise DOF by reducing the aperture, the 30D has a bit less of a noise issue than the 400D so that should give you an extra stop to 'spend' on aperture.

If you want consistent, great results in sports photography, you need to upgrade to a 1DII / 1DIII though. You can get them with the consumer cameras, working to their limitations, but the keeper rate will always be much lower than with a 1-series. My keeper rate for fast action improved dramatically with the 5D, despite the 'not suitable for sports' reputation of that camera. That rep being based purely on the slow 3fps burst rate.

I have finally bitten the bullet and ordered a 1DIII to get the fast AF with a great frame rate. It won't make me a better photographer, but my keeper rate will go up as the camera has greater capabilities - Faster AF, up to 10fps, better noise control to allow higher ISO so allowing faster shutter speeds and/or smaller apertures.

[Clark]

Originally Posted by pagnamenta

I shoot a 30D with 70-200 f2.8. I find it best to use CF 4-3. I always keep the camera in Al Servo mode so that when the object is in focus, I can just let go of the focus button and snap the shot without changing the focus.

On the sports shots, whether it is track or soccer, I use all the AF points to track focus. I shoot with a narrow DOF, usually 2.8-3.5 and I get many more keepers with all the AF points, rather than the center AF point.

Galaxy99, your lighting seems really harsh. I would have lowered the aperture to something like f5.6 and shot from there.

I stand corrected 4-3 is the way to go. should have looked at my settings. Been awhile since I set it and never looked again.

[csjonesv1]

if its any help ill try to walk you through what i do to get the pics i want.

first i set the iso this depends on the light if its bright i can use 200 iso if its dull il go to 400 or even higher i need to get as high a s/s as i can.

then ill use ap mode for events like track/longjump/highjump to tackle the pole vault i shoot in man mode and take a reading from a gray card with my camera set to f6 and use the speed it shows me, in ap mode i set the f stop to f6 again and let the camera set the speed. this should be fast ie 1000 of a second if you cant get this fast you can come down a bit but i would rase the iso a bit first.

i use the centre focus point always for all my photography.

i find a1servo best but my success could be down to the 1dmk2 ?
you can use oneshot what i would do is pick a point to shoot at say the winning line pre focus and as the athlete crosses the line shoot with the camera set to its fastest frame rate.

i hope some of this info is of help to you

[photosbylisa]

Originally Posted by Clark

I stand corrected 4-3 is the way to go. should have looked at my settings. Been awhile since I set it and never looked again.

I've never used any of the custom functions before, so I will have to get my manual out and give it a whirl. My fear is setting something that I can't get "unset" for when I do my portrait work....or forgetting to change something. But, that is a whole different story, and look forward to next Saturdays games to try some new techniques.

Thanks everyone for all of your tips! Keep em' coming!

[metalman1010]

There are acouple different factors to look at that might have happened.

I have done this before. Did you have your lens set to MF? Did you have it set to 6m-Infinity and were closer than that to the subject you were shooting?

I was having horrendous problems with the AI Servo focusing problems with the 20D and I had the custom functions set so I could use the (*) button on the back to focus with.

I eventually found out that if you press the shutter button and the back button at the same time the FPS and focusing slows down.

I was getting crisp walls when I would shoot hockey.

The other suggestion is to try and focus on a point where you know all the runners will eventually be coming to, say the finish line. You can also look at the range meter on the lens and find out where that point is in feet or meters.

Last I don't remember where I read it but objects moving towards or away instead of across you don't have to shoot as fast so yes drop your speed down and you can open up your DOF to the fastest you can and at this point it will be f/2.8.

Ok thats my small contribution.

Ross