TO ALL WEDDING PHOTOGRAPHERS...

[Ishootpeoplewithmycanon]

FACT: Most of us here live in America which if you didnt notice is based on capitolism. That is why America is great, but there is a downside too.
People have the ability to work extra hard for their money becasue there is competition. When you have to stand out to make money it drives you to be better.

Also whether we like it or not there will always be a "walmart" ,if you will, comng in your neighborhood and undercutting you because they will offer a cheaply made product for cheap. This sucks for the "mom and pop" business across the street, but if you are good at what you do, offer a quality product at a reasonable price, and you have loyal clients, you should be fine.
Charge accordingly to your skill level. Have respect for your artform, and you will be successful in my opinion.

Also don't you think that the fact that our economy has been on the decline for years now has a lot to do with it?
I mean when you pay close to 400$ for gas a month, doesn't it have an effect on everyones budget?

[lulugus]

Originally Posted by belmondo

You are absolutely right. Moreover, the forum's policy is firmly against pirated or illegally obtained software. I ageree, the statement is offensive.

Oh for the love of crackers. Slander and offensive? Did you notice the words "some of you" and "probably"?

Slander would be a false statement presented as fact about you, personally. If you are someone using the software without a legal license, then it would be a fact about you, not a false one. If you are using the software licensed, then I wasn't referring to you all, now was I?

My conjecture that some people out of thousands on this forum are "probably" using illegal software... you're going to say THAT is offensive over the personal attacks and insults against amateur photographers throughout this very thread??

I'm sad that this is what was focused on, but obviously the rest of my post hit a nerve about what a real business does and how it performs.

How about another example? How many of you go to the gas station that charges the highest gas prices because you believe that their fuel has better quality as they claim, and that they have better service as they claim? And how many of you go out of your way to find the gas station that's selling gas for just a little cheaper? Aren't you encouraging lower gas prices by going to the less-expensive place?

In either case, no matter what you answered - both companies are still doing business, aren't they? Would you rather someone make a federal law that demands gas prices stay at the highest price possible because the guys selling it cheaper are ruining the competition?

(And no, I'm not saying photography is just like selling gas - but if you want to consider yourself a legitimate business person, you need to look at it as a business.)

[SDavis Photo]

Originally Posted by liza

I see a decrease in the number of people wanting to pay for quality. It seems that the plethora of amateurs willing to shoot weddings for little to nothing has adversely affected the industry overall. Even clients who spend thousands for catering, the dress, the venue, etc, aren't willing to pay for the one thing that will endure over the years. If you want to be a wedding photographer these days, be ready for cutthroat competition.

I couldn't agree with you more, I shoot a wedding last weekend were they paid 6,000 just for the place to have it. The wedding had to cost over 10,000 with catering. But what they wanted from me was the photos on a DVD so they could make there own photos from them. This I was told when I showed up for the rehearsal. I showed them the Contract and they backed off. For some reason now that we are shooting digital they think anyone can do it.

[_aravena]

^Quite true. My most recent wedding was for a friend but we still agreed it be treated as business though I wouldn't charge her as much. Thing was it was a 4hr drive. Initially they had a room for us which was fine and I took it into consideration. Plans changed and I took that in as well as we had to drive home night of.

Overall I had really didn't even charge for traveling as I stuck to the length of her wedding really and she freaked out a bit at the price. I was shock because I practically slit my own throat giving her the price I did. I was shocked that she was so shocked and considered how much our wedding photography was (double by the way) for just as long of wedding and no edits.

Given she's my 5th wedding, she didn't even offer to cover gas expense and thought the $86 room for one night was enough coverage.

[Toogy]

I don't know, I have almost 20 weddings booked for NEXT year already, and over 20 this year. This is all based on referrals mainly. Do a good job, and deliver or over deliver on what you promise and people will recommend you.
I am priced reasonably in my market, not over priced, but not under priced either. Rates range from $1600-$3300 for coverage only. I am not really concerned with all the new people thinking they can get into it. After a few weddings, they will either up their prices or most likely get out of the business.

[TrulyBlessed]

MKII,

I am new to the photography world, I love it though. It has been my passion for 6 years now. To me it is an art, a passion. There is no one price you can put on an image for the meaning it has to the one who took it. It has a story behind it. I try to give these to others so they can get a glimpse of something that means so much to me. I do not and have not done a wedding, but I have a dear friend that is considered a high end wedding photographer. I have followed him (per his offer) and he has taught me so much. He is not threatened by me, in fact he has welcomed me to his world, with so much grace and love. He is a true photographer, with many many years of experince and he has the degrees and awards for his work to back him in that regaurd, but he has told me many times that it isn't the piece of paper that makes his a photog it is his passion. If it ever became not fun, or he lost his passion for it, he would no longer be a pro...no matter how much education has and awards he has won.

The people on here love photography. We are all at different levels. Instead of bashing the ones "below" you, you should be encouraging and teaching. You never know when Joe blow may be better than you. Photography is an art, and a passion. Otherwise, they just become pictures.

[strmrdr]

A lot of pros in my area are losing a lot of business in my area because they are not giving the customer what they want but are trying to force the customer into buying what they want to sell.

2 biggies they don't want to offer is full resolution images on disk with release and privacy.
A friend of mine is suing her photog for playing games on the resolution of the images given on the disk.
1024x768 is not high resolution, I may be testifying as an expert witness in the case if it gets that far.
He don't have a leg to stand on.

[_aravena]

Oh yeah. In my little crap town of Lakeland a lot of amateurs, or at least that's how their photos look (a lot lot lot lot worse then people posting saying it's their first wedding), take advantage of people. I went to see a few for my wedding and man of man the price and photos did not match. One guy was such a snob demanding you allow them time to eat at the wedding (by them I mean his uninvited wife) and wanted 1500 as a basic package for like 4hrs a disc and some stupid add on he made sound important. Not to mention totally rude to me as though I was some kid with a new toy.

[SDavis Photo]

Originally Posted by strmrdr

A lot of pros in my area are losing a lot of business in my area because they are not giving the customer what they want but are trying to force the customer into buying what they want to sell.

2 biggies they don't want to offer is full resolution images on disk with release and privacy.
A friend of mine is suing her photog for playing games on the resolution of the images given on the disk.
1024x768 is not high resolution, I may be testifying as an expert witness in the case if it gets that far.
He don't have a leg to stand on.

I'v been doing wedding since 1969 and have always had a Contract. When we used film the negatives were kept by me and if they wanted more prints all they had to do was call me and give me the number and sizes. Why now should they get full resolution images. It's sure not in my contract. It plainly states that I own the images, not them.

[Toogy]

Originally Posted by SDavis Photo

Why now should they get full resolution images.

Because it's a different time, nobody wants to get prints done by a photographer when they can get their own prints done at costco for 15 cents a piece.
I price my packages accordingly. I give them the full resolution images on disk, I don't base my profits on selling any prints after the fact.

[strmrdr]

Originally Posted by Toogy

Because it's a different time, nobody wants to get prints done by a photographer when they can get their own prints done at costco for 15 cents a piece.
I price my packages accordingly. I give them the full resolution images on disk, I don't base my profits on selling any prints after the fact.

If you were in my area and I could afford it id hire you for my wedding in a heartbeat.

Here is why a disk is important to me:
Both of my parents have passed away the last pro pictures we had of them were at my sisters wedding.
The photog is gone to who knows where and my sister has a album and a box of 4x6 proofs no negatives, no print rights.
I would like a copy of the picture of my parents.
So I can either break copyright and scan a proof and print it or not have the picture on my wall.
If the photog was around and still happened to have the negatives I am more than willing to pay more than 15 cents for a 8x10 or 3.
I would rather have the higher quality print and am willing to pay for it but that is not an option.

[strmrdr]

Originally Posted by SDavis Photo

I'v been doing wedding since 1969 and have always had a Contract. When we used film the negatives were kept by me and if they wanted more prints all they had to do was call me and give me the number and sizes. Why now should they get full resolution images. It's sure not in my contract. It plainly states that I own the images, not them.

The contract says a disk of 500 or more high resolution images.
Why should he not have to live up to his contract?
Do you have the negatives available from a wedding 14 years ago?

[stathunter]

Originally Posted by Toogy

I don't know, I have almost 20 weddings booked for NEXT year already, and over 20 this year. This is all based on referrals mainly. Do a good job, and deliver or over deliver on what you promise and people will recommend you.
I am priced reasonably in my market, not over priced, but not under priced either. Rates range from $1600-$3300 for coverage only. I am not really concerned with all the new people thinking they can get into it. After a few weddings, they will either up their prices or most likely get out of the business.

I am with Jeff on this. I price my rates so I get my money up front and any prints are just icing on the cake. I do a lot of referrals by giving my brides more than they expect. My difficulty is many brides want to see their photos the next day......sheesh.

[Windchaser]

I live in CA and I find it extremely hard to book a wedding these days. People aren't willing to pay for top notch work, let alone: they think their parents, cousins, sisters, brothers, etc with a point and shoot can get the job done. It's ridiculous because the studio I work for is constantly changing their contracts to meet the needs of the common consumer. We went from booking 7 weddings a week to 1 per week. This does not include other events like engagements, private parties, etc.

As far as selling prints and releasing copyrights, it is getting quite difficult to compete with those shabby Walmart prints that are now $0.13 for a standard size print. I use to process and print over 3K photos a day for our clients, but we are lucky to even get 200. Our studio is reasonably priced and our contract is always negotiable so we are not overpriced.

I had plans on going solo, but I really don't think I can handle the cut-throat business this decade is providing .

[symes]

Originally Posted by lulugus

I just stumbled across this thread and found it quite interesting and amusing.

I am a graphic designer by trade and have been for over 15 years. I started graphic designing before computers had mice. Yeah, I'm old-skool.

So, should I be banging down the doors of all you people using Photoshop and screaming at you about how you are taking work away from me? About how you changed the market value of my services? There used to be a day when only professionals could afford photoshop and knew how to use it. There used to be a day when nobody could afford the kind of computer that could even RUN photoshop. Yet here you all are, using photoshop and other high-end software products (that some of you probably even don't have legal licenses for) and you are taking away a large portion of the business I used to do. Should I call you all names and scream and pout at you for bringing my market value down?

Uh... no.

I still have clients that hire me for my design work, because they've seen the work I do and they know I am GOOD AT WHAT I DO. Yes, I have lost clients who's son in junior-high suddenly got an interest in InDesign and thinks he can design high-end magazines in between episodes of The O.C., but I can't cry over that. That's how the world of business works.

Technology changes, product availability changes, the market changes, your customer base changes. DEAL WITH IT.

Your average couple is not concerned with your incredible history of perfect composition, angle and lighting technique. They want photos that look "good" and will help them remember the day. If you, as a photographer, can show them samples of your work and convince them that what you do is what they need, then you are doing your job. You are selling a product. You have competition. It isn't up to your competition to charge a crapload of money they don't need, so that YOU can charge a crapload of money to "feed your kids."

If you aren't doing well in the business of wedding photography, then you are failing at selling yourself and your product (as YOU'VE decided it should be valued), period.

I find some of your points valid but I also find your suggestion that we have pirated sofware exceptionally offensive! be careful who you slander!