Canon Digital Photography Forums  

Go Back   Canon Digital Photography Forums > 'Photo Sharing' section > Weddings and Other Family Events
Register Rules FAQ Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 14th of October 2007 (Sun)   #1
amonline
Goldmember
 
amonline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,528
Default 2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

I was just wondering what you guys' terms are with your second shooter. Do you pay them? If so, what's the going rate? Are you covering their use of images through your contract? Etc, etc...

Any info you can lend would be nice. I have a partner that I want to utilize this spring and am just trying to see what's customary. Thanks!
amonline is offline   Reply With Quote
This ad block will go away when you log in as member
Old 14th of October 2007 (Sun)   #2
stathunter
Cream of the Crop
 
stathunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: California & Michigan
Posts: 5,577
Default Re: 2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

Allow them to tag along, carry your stuff, take fantastic pictures, clean your eqipment and only when they deliver the pictures in a format that is reasonable pay them $20 for gas and a Tim Horton's gift certificate.
__________________
Scott
"Do or do not, there is no try"
stathunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th of October 2007 (Sun)   #3
LightUser
User is banned from forums
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 286
Default Re: 2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

Anytime I help a certain fellow pro when he needs it, he pays me $200.00 to set up his lights, take them down and also 2nd. shoot with him and give him the images and he lets me use them for my portfolio and he sells and gets the money so he makes sure we both benefit.
LightUser is offline   Reply With Quote
This ad block will go away when you log in as member
Old 14th of October 2007 (Sun)   #4
amonline
Goldmember
 
amonline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,528
Default Re: 2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

I'd like to hear more guys!

LightUser, you're pretty much right in line with my thinking. While I'm gearing up to use a partner, he will be doing the same for me and I'm just looking ahead at what's fair to the both of us when backing each other. What you stated is exactly what I had in mind. So, I'm guessing his contract covers usage of "all" wedding images for personal use? (ie: portfolio)
amonline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th of October 2007 (Sun)   #5
nikonthree
Member
 
nikonthree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Savannah, GA
Posts: 316
Default Re: 2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

In my experience, a second shooter paid between 125-200 flat fee, manages equipment, and shoots.

Shots are property of the principle photographer, usable for second shooter's portfolio and website (everyone wins this way as the second shooter will strive for better shots, so he/she can use them for themselves)

BTW- There was a pretty good/recent thread going on the DWF about this subject, you might look there for input as well
__________________
-A&R
Savannah | Hilton Head
Concept-A Photography

Last edited by nikonthree : 14th of October 2007 (Sun) at 20:13.
nikonthree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th of October 2007 (Sun)   #6
gateruner
Member
 
gateruner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 358
Default Re: 2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nikonthree View Post
In my experience, a second shooter paid between 125-200 flat fee, manages equipment, and shoots.

Shots are property of the principle photographer, usable for second shooter's portfolio and website (everyone wins this way as the second shooter will strive for better shots, so he/she can use them for themselves)
This is exactly how we work. However, we add that the second has to wait 30 days before posting any images anywhere just to keep the B & G from seeing them somewhere other than our site by some odd chance. I dont think it is to much to ask.
__________________
Scott { Website } {Blog}

5D x 4, Canon 30D x 2, Canon G12, 70-200 2.8L is x2, 17-55 IS, 24-70 2.8L x2, 85 1.2, 50 1.2, Canon 1.4 TX, 18-55 kit lens, Vert Grip x 2, Bogen Pro Mono, 580 EX x 2, 430EX, 28 gig memory, Pelican 1564 & a bunch of older Canon/Pentax stuff
gateruner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th of October 2007 (Mon)   #7
John Mireles
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 259
Default Re: 2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

I always pay my second shooter/assistant. I always work with a second and have a regular crew that I work with. Our studio retains the copyright to all images although we do allow the second to use images for non-competing purposes.

For the legal implications of hiring an assistant/second shooter, you can check out http://photographerstoolkit.com/Resources.html. I have an article on associates and assistants posted there.

There's also a contract for assistants/second shooters and another for independent contractors. If you don't specify that you own the copyright to the images, your second shooter will own the copyright and could technically create problems unless you resolve them beforehand in writing. A good second shooter contract is actually far more complicated than a standard wedding contract since there are so many more issues to deal with such as copyright, noncompete, taxes, etc. Unlike a wedding client, you may deal with a second over many times and they'll have intimate knowledge of your business. Best to think ahead and protect yourself.

John
__________________
www.photographerstoolkit.com
Sign up for my free Photographer's Business Coach newsletter
John Mireles is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th of October 2007 (Mon)   #8
notapro
Goldmember
 
notapro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 2,540
Default Re: 2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mireles View Post
I always pay my second shooter/assistant. I always work with a second and have a regular crew that I work with. Our studio retains the copyright to all images although we do allow the second to use images for non-competing purposes.

For the legal implications of hiring an assistant/second shooter, you can check out http://photographerstoolkit.com/Resources.html. I have an article on associates and assistants posted there.

There's also a contract for assistants/second shooters and another for independent contractors. If you don't specify that you own the copyright to the images, your second shooter will own the copyright and could technically create problems unless you resolve them beforehand in writing. A good second shooter contract is actually far more complicated than a standard wedding contract since there are so many more issues to deal with such as copyright, noncompete, taxes, etc. Unlike a wedding client, you may deal with a second over many times and they'll have intimate knowledge of your business. Best to think ahead and protect yourself.

John
Just curious how you define "non-competing purposes" Would that include his/her own portfolio or website as these are marketing tools? If so, do you pay them more than the ~$200 that I understand to be the norm?

I think it would be difficult for me to agree to those terms as a second. I would want to own the copyright on my images, and I'd expect the to be paid a fairly high price for that. Do most people have this type or agreement with their seconds?
__________________
Amanda

Ontario Wedding Photographer | My Blog
notapro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th of October 2007 (Mon)   #9
Big Mike
Senior Member
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 1,023
Default Re: 2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

I may be doing some second shooting with an established pro in my area. We just did one, as a trial, and it went well. I think we agreed upon a price that is around $33 per hour, based on a 15 hour wedding job. The photos are theirs, to use and sell etc, but I'd have to ask again, if I would be allowed to use them for my own promotion. I think she said that, in the past, they didn't allow that (or they paid less) but I think we can come up with an agreement that is satisfactory to everyone. I think the idea of not posting them before the client gets then, is a good one. I would even add a logo, label or watermark, to specify that I took the photo while working for their company.
__________________
Instructor at The Canadian Photography Learning Centre.
Blog
Big Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th of October 2007 (Mon)   #10
notapro
Goldmember
 
notapro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Southwestern Ontario
Posts: 2,540
Default Re: 2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Mike View Post
I may be doing some second shooting with an established pro in my area. We just did one, as a trial, and it went well. I think we agreed upon a price that is around $33 per hour, based on a 15 hour wedding job. The photos are theirs, to use and sell etc, but I'd have to ask again, if I would be allowed to use them for my own promotion. I think she said that, in the past, they didn't allow that (or they paid less) but I think we can come up with an agreement that is satisfactory to everyone. I think the idea of not posting them before the client gets then, is a good one. I would even add a logo, label or watermark, to specify that I took the photo while working for their company.
I always assumed that in most cases the second held the copyright and could use them for their portfolio, etc. I do see the potential problem that the hiring company is facing with seconds possibly undercutting their prices and selling to the couples, but I would hope for a middle ground.
__________________
Amanda

Ontario Wedding Photographer | My Blog
notapro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th of October 2007 (Mon)   #11
Big Mike
Senior Member
 
Big Mike's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 1,023
Default Re: 2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

Well, if someone did go behind the primary photographer's back like that...not only would it be extremely bad practice...but it would probably be career suicide.

I think what someone would be worried about is more the image side of it. As an established pro, you don't necessarily want images of your wedding clients, being splashed around by another photographer...especially if you had anything to do with the photos in question.
__________________
Instructor at The Canadian Photography Learning Centre.
Blog
Big Mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th of October 2007 (Tue)   #12
thebrewer
Member
 
thebrewer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Mohawk Valley, NY
Posts: 786
Default Re: 2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

Quote:
Originally Posted by notapro View Post
I always assumed that in most cases the second held the copyright and could use them for their portfolio, etc. I do see the potential problem that the hiring company is facing with seconds possibly undercutting their prices and selling to the couples, but I would hope for a middle ground.
A second shooter may have little no rights to the photos depending on the agreement (which you should have in writing) or payment arrangement.

Do a quick google search on 'work for hire' and photo. (I am not a lawyer)

Your agreement should clear these things up before you shoot or hire a second shooter.
__________________

thebrewer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th of October 2007 (Tue)   #13
liza
User is banned from forums
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Mayberry
Posts: 11,386
Default Re: 2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

The second shooter ideally uses his/her own equipment and while they may use the images for their portfolio, I retain copyright since it's a work for hire situation. They earn $100 for the day. My assistant (aka my son) earns $50 for the day to tend to the equipment.
liza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th of October 2007 (Tue)   #14
bcap
MR. PP
 
bcap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Niagara, Ontario
Posts: 7,364
Default Re: 2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

The main photog usually likes to have lots of photos taken of them, so make sure you do that.
bcap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th of October 2007 (Tue)   #15
stathunter
Cream of the Crop
 
stathunter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: California & Michigan
Posts: 5,577
Default Re: 2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

Bryan is the Robin-- of batman and robin ---of second shooters from what I understand. Go Bryan.........go bryan........go bryan.
__________________
Scott
"Do or do not, there is no try"
stathunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2nd Shooter jarias Weddings and Other Family Events 8 5th of November 2007 (Mon) 09:34
is this sufficient for a terms of use agreement michael_ The Business of Photography 8 18th of September 2007 (Tue) 05:36
8/25 My First as 2nd Shooter g-money Weddings and Other Family Events 9 1st of September 2007 (Sat) 20:59
Asking to become 2nd shooter slappy sam Weddings and Other Family Events 9 1st of June 2007 (Fri) 01:50
2nd wedding as 2nd shooter 5/19 joshbehan Weddings and Other Family Events 3 22nd of May 2007 (Tue) 09:45


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:55.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.12
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
This forum is not affiliated with Canon in any way and is run as a free user helpsite by Pekka Saarinen, Helsinki Finland. You will need to register in order to be able to post messages. Cookies are required for registering and posting. HTML in messages is not allowed, plain website addresses are automatically made active by the board.