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2nd Shooter Agreement/Terms?

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Thread started 14 Oct 2007 (Sunday) 17:14   
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amonline
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I was just wondering what you guys' terms are with your second shooter. Do you pay them? If so, what's the going rate? Are you covering their use of images through your contract? Etc, etc...

Any info you can lend would be nice. I have a partner that I want to utilize this spring and am just trying to see what's customary. Thanks!

Post #1, Oct 14, 2007 17:14:34




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stathunter
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Allow them to tag along, carry your stuff, take fantastic pictures, clean your eqipment and only when they deliver the pictures in a format that is reasonable pay them $20 for gas and a Tim Horton's gift certificate.

Post #2, Oct 14, 2007 18:35:35


Scott
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LightUser
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Anytime I help a certain fellow pro when he needs it, he pays me $200.00 to set up his lights, take them down and also 2nd. shoot with him and give him the images and he lets me use them for my portfolio and he sells and gets the money so he makes sure we both benefit.

Post #3, Oct 14, 2007 18:52:16 as a reply to stathunter's post 16 minutes earlier.




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amonline
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I'd like to hear more guys!

LightUser, you're pretty much right in line with my thinking. While I'm gearing up to use a partner, he will be doing the same for me and I'm just looking ahead at what's fair to the both of us when backing each other. What you stated is exactly what I had in mind. So, I'm guessing his contract covers usage of "all" wedding images for personal use? (ie: portfolio)

Post #4, Oct 14, 2007 19:26:29




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nikonthree
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In my experience, a second shooter paid between 125-200 flat fee, manages equipment, and shoots.

Shots are property of the principle photographer, usable for second shooter's portfolio and website (everyone wins this way as the second shooter will strive for better shots, so he/she can use them for themselves)

BTW- There was a pretty good/recent thread going on the DWF about this subject, you might look there for input as well

Post #5, Oct 14, 2007 20:10:11


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gateruner
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nikonthree wrote in post #4123956external link
In my experience, a second shooter paid between 125-200 flat fee, manages equipment, and shoots.

Shots are property of the principle photographer, usable for second shooter's portfolio and website (everyone wins this way as the second shooter will strive for better shots, so he/she can use them for themselves)

This is exactly how we work. However, we add that the second has to wait 30 days before posting any images anywhere just to keep the B & G from seeing them somewhere other than our site by some odd chance. I dont think it is to much to ask.

Post #6, Oct 14, 2007 20:15:49


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John ­ Mireles
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I always pay my second shooter/assistant. I always work with a second and have a regular crew that I work with. Our studio retains the copyright to all images although we do allow the second to use images for non-competing purposes.

For the legal implications of hiring an assistant/second shooter, you can check out http://photographersto​olkit.com/Resources.ht​mlexternal link. I have an article on associates and assistants posted there.

There's also a contract for assistants/second shooters and another for independent contractors. If you don't specify that you own the copyright to the images, your second shooter will own the copyright and could technically create problems unless you resolve them beforehand in writing. A good second shooter contract is actually far more complicated than a standard wedding contract since there are so many more issues to deal with such as copyright, noncompete, taxes, etc. Unlike a wedding client, you may deal with a second over many times and they'll have intimate knowledge of your business. Best to think ahead and protect yourself.

John

Post #7, Oct 15, 2007 00:30:10


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notapro
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John Mireles wrote in post #4125376external link
I always pay my second shooter/assistant. I always work with a second and have a regular crew that I work with. Our studio retains the copyright to all images although we do allow the second to use images for non-competing purposes.

For the legal implications of hiring an assistant/second shooter, you can check out http://photographersto​olkit.com/Resources.ht​mlexternal link. I have an article on associates and assistants posted there.

There's also a contract for assistants/second shooters and another for independent contractors. If you don't specify that you own the copyright to the images, your second shooter will own the copyright and could technically create problems unless you resolve them beforehand in writing. A good second shooter contract is actually far more complicated than a standard wedding contract since there are so many more issues to deal with such as copyright, noncompete, taxes, etc. Unlike a wedding client, you may deal with a second over many times and they'll have intimate knowledge of your business. Best to think ahead and protect yourself.

John

Just curious how you define "non-competing purposes" Would that include his/her own portfolio or website as these are marketing tools? If so, do you pay them more than the ~$200 that I understand to be the norm?

I think it would be difficult for me to agree to those terms as a second. I would want to own the copyright on my images, and I'd expect the to be paid a fairly high price for that. Do most people have this type or agreement with their seconds?

Post #8, Oct 15, 2007 13:25:04


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Big ­ Mike
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I may be doing some second shooting with an established pro in my area. We just did one, as a trial, and it went well. I think we agreed upon a price that is around $33 per hour, based on a 15 hour wedding job. The photos are theirs, to use and sell etc, but I'd have to ask again, if I would be allowed to use them for my own promotion. I think she said that, in the past, they didn't allow that (or they paid less) but I think we can come up with an agreement that is satisfactory to everyone. I think the idea of not posting them before the client gets then, is a good one. I would even add a logo, label or watermark, to specify that I took the photo while working for their company.

Post #9, Oct 15, 2007 13:38:40


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notapro
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Big Mike wrote in post #4128278external link
I may be doing some second shooting with an established pro in my area. We just did one, as a trial, and it went well. I think we agreed upon a price that is around $33 per hour, based on a 15 hour wedding job. The photos are theirs, to use and sell etc, but I'd have to ask again, if I would be allowed to use them for my own promotion. I think she said that, in the past, they didn't allow that (or they paid less) but I think we can come up with an agreement that is satisfactory to everyone. I think the idea of not posting them before the client gets then, is a good one. I would even add a logo, label or watermark, to specify that I took the photo while working for their company.

I always assumed that in most cases the second held the copyright and could use them for their portfolio, etc. I do see the potential problem that the hiring company is facing with seconds possibly undercutting their prices and selling to the couples, but I would hope for a middle ground.

Post #10, Oct 15, 2007 14:22:56


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Big ­ Mike
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Well, if someone did go behind the primary photographer's back like that...not only would it be extremely bad practice...but it would probably be career suicide.

I think what someone would be worried about is more the image side of it. As an established pro, you don't necessarily want images of your wedding clients, being splashed around by another photographer...especia​lly if you had anything to do with the photos in question.

Post #11, Oct 15, 2007 14:31:31


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thebrewer
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notapro wrote in post #4128561external link
I always assumed that in most cases the second held the copyright and could use them for their portfolio, etc. I do see the potential problem that the hiring company is facing with seconds possibly undercutting their prices and selling to the couples, but I would hope for a middle ground.

A second shooter may have little no rights to the photos depending on the agreement (which you should have in writing) or payment arrangement.

Do a quick google search on 'work for hire' and photo. (I am not a lawyer)

Your agreement should clear these things up before you shoot or hire a second shooter.

Post #12, Oct 16, 2007 01:08:00


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liza
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The second shooter ideally uses his/her own equipment and while they may use the images for their portfolio, I retain copyright since it's a work for hire situation. They earn $100 for the day. My assistant (aka my son) earns $50 for the day to tend to the equipment.

Post #13, Oct 16, 2007 06:34:59



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bcap
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The main photog usually likes to have lots of photos taken of them, so make sure you do that.

Post #14, Oct 16, 2007 07:11:12


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stathunter
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Bryan is the Robin-- of batman and robin ---of second shooters from what I understand. Go Bryan.........go bryan........go bryan. :)

Post #15, Oct 16, 2007 07:35:45


Scott
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