10D - Soft Image?? Why???

[saikidesign]

That's it... After five month, seven thousand five hundred photos I get tired to work hours in my computer trying to sharp images from my Canon 10D.
I went crazy trying to find an answer for this problem and I invested almost U$ 2,000.00 in a L series lens. Whit L series lens I had a bit better quality photo but not good as I expected. I sold all my Nikon lens and a Fuji S1 Pro body (really sharp images but 3MG Pixels...) to go with Canon and I think the camere design is great but the images are soft. The sharpness setting is up to +2 and still not great. It is just me, my 10D or all 10D's are the same. Should I sell it and go with something like Mark II? It may be the solution but find a Mark II in the store it is an other dilemma... I may don't need such expensive professional camera been an amateur photographer but I can do anything to have a better image out of my camera - I really hate work hours in my computer sharpening images ... Can anyone out there tell me if there is anything that I can do to have sharper images straight out of my 10D - or this is something impossible? I'll really appreciate any help. Regards, Oswaldo.

[scottbergerphoto]

The images from the Mark II are not inherently any sharper then the 10D. If you consistently get images that are hard to sharpen in PS, you may have a body problem-focus issue. If you are using Center Point only AF and this occurs on all your lenses you should send it to Canon for evaluation. The only other thing I would do first is check to see if the results are better with MF then AF. If MF is better then AF, that would be suggestive of an AF problem. You should post what settings you are using to sharpen.
Regards,
Scott

[saikidesign]

Hi Scott, Thanks for your helpfull reply. With these Ultra Sonic Motor focusing our Canon lens I do not use MF mode that much but I'll try and see if it is any better than AF mode. The shapness set up in my camera it is just adjusted on parameters were I pushed to +2 and basically that's all I did. In Photoshop I can sharp the final image after reduce the size of the original image to something like 72dpi's by 8x11" and bump sharpness using unsharp mask. It looks great on the computer screem but that's it. For print outs I'm using 300dpi's 8x11 (for 8x11' prints) but the results are far from good

[cmM]

There is a thread talking about focusing issues with the 10D. Check out the thread "All the Best Links", on the last page, there is a link to that thread (I think CDS posted the link). That might give you a little more insight into your potential problem.

[SDK^]

The images from camera will be soft even with +2 Sharpening set. You need to you Unsharp Mask in Photoshop or any other sharpening software that is available to you.

Can you post some example images ?

[Aylwin]

Originally Posted by SDK^

The images from camera will be soft even with +2 Sharpening set. You need to you Unsharp Mask in Photoshop or any other sharpening software that is available to you.

I respectfully disagree. I've never even tried messing with those sharpening parameters and I've got lots of shots that have required little or no sharpening... at least for my taste anyway. Mostly these are portrait shots. With landscape shots where there's lots of small detail, then I may need it but still not that much.

Usually, if I need to "fight" with USM then it's to correct my own mistakes... or the camera's.

In Oswaldo's case, I think it may be a problem specific to his camera.

[PhotosGuy]

It looks great on the computer screem but that's it. For print outs I'm using 300dpi's 8x11 (for 8x11' prints) but the results are far from good

In another thread about 3 weeks ago, I think it was Scottes who said something like, "You need to sharpen much more aggressively for prints, than for the web."
Maybe you don't really have a problem & just need to sharpen more.

[PhotosGuy]

I found it:
Scottes on Sharpening
http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...ad.php?t=39240

[jrm]

Two thoughts/comments...


1. Are you shooting RAW? If so, it is my understanding that the "+2 sharpness" setting in the camera will have no effect. All those settings are bypassed when shooting RAW format. (Someone please correct me if I am wrong).

2. If everything looks fine on screen (even zoomed in) and just the prints are soft, maybe the problem is the output device. Have you tried a dfferent printer? Better yet, take a few prints to a professional output service - preferable a good camera store where you can explain your problem and they take extra care with the printing to help isolate the cause.

[scottbergerphoto]

Just to clarify a couple of things:
1. Images shot raw are not affected by the camera parameters. However, when you convert, if you select the option to use the parameters "same as shot", those parameters will be applied to the converted image.

2. All digital images need to be sharpened. There is an Anti Aliasing filter in front of the CMOS sensor that softens the borders between pixels. If it didn't you would get severe jaggies or steps. The amount of sharpening you need to apply depends on many factors: lens, subject(people vs buildongs), accuracy of focus to name a few. I usually set my 10D to 0 for sharpening and in PS CS I use USM of 100-200, R=0.6-1.0, T=0. Those numbers will vary depending on the image.

Many people coming from Point and Shoot cameras are very disappointed when they get their first DSLR. P&S cameras do alot of in camera sharpening. DSLR's leave that to you. I use a 10D and 1D Mark II and I sharpen all my pictures.

Regards,
Scott

[Mitch]

So, you are getting consistantly soft pictures? Here's your problem. The most likely reason that you are getting soft images is because of two factors: 1)your camera and/or your lenses are most definitely out of adjustment 2)you are shooting with too small a Depth of Field.

Something you must know about the 10D. Canon considers the 10D a "consumer" level camera, that is, it is not officially a professional piece of equipment. As such, the factory spec for focus adjustment is that the focus point only has to be configured to be "anywhere" within the Depth of Field (DOF). That means that if the aperture, subject distance from the camera, and the focal length for a given shot provide a DOF of, let's say, 4 inches, then the focus point of your 10D can be in the front of the 4-inch DOF or it can be in the middle or it can be at the back end of the DOF. Huge, huge variance my friend! Have you tested your camera? Do you know if your 10D is front focusing or back focusing? Is your camera out of adjustment? You know, your camera may be out of adjustment and its focus point may not even be within the DOF. Very, very, very possible, and, in my opinion, quite probable with the 10D.

Something else you absolutely must be aware of is shooting with settings that provide very small DOFs. When you set up a shot and use various settings for f-stop, focal length, and distance from the subject, do you know what DOF you are creating? Did you know that if you shoot at 70mm focal length with F2.8 from seven feet away from the subject that your DOF is only 3.7 inches? So, if you are doing a shoulder shot or head shot of someone with these settings and your camera is focusing at the back end of the DOF and you sway forward one inch and the subject sways forward toward you one inch just at the moment you take the shot, you are hopelessly out of focus!

The problem is probably not limited to the camera only. Your lenses (L or otherwise) are probably not perfectly adjusted either. So, add that probability to the probability of your camera being out of adjustment or at least back focusing or front focusing "within" the DOF and you will get tons and tons of soft images.

I speak from experience. I was getting many, many soft images with my two 10D cameras and four lenses. I tested my equipment and made a giant discovery. Both cameras were not adjusted properly as one was one was front focusing and the other was back focusing severely. The lenses were performing differently as well. I sent all my equipment ( both cams and all lenses) in to Canon in Irvine, CA and within four days got them back. I tested them all and the equipment was performing much more consistantly. Now, both cams were within spec and performed very similarly. That is, both were just slightly front focusing within the DOF by just about the same amount. That was a great improvement! Something I could work with. Also, the lenses were now performing very consistantly. Huge improvement.

Next, I started studying DOF at different camera settings and made a huge discovery. Without realizing it, I had been shooting many of my shots with very small DOFs. Not good! Now, being aware of the DOF of different settings, now being aware of the fact that my cameras slightly front focus within the DOF, I now shoot with larger and more consistant DOF settings appropriate to the subject that I am shooting. RESULT - virtually all, that's right, virtually all my shots are crystal clear and sharp. After I became "aware" and had my equipment recalibrated and started shooting with "smarter" settings, my soft images went away. Ever since then (April 2004), my wedding shoots consistantly result in 97% tack sharp images! Huge, collosal, monumental difference!

Ever wonder why some people will say great things about a certain lens and others will say that they only get mediocre results concerning the very same lens? Ever wonder why some people will say that they get tack sharp photos sometimes but at other times they get soft pictures and that they don't understand why they are getting mixed and inconsistant results? Ever wonder why some people say that the 10D is fantastic, that the 17-40, or the 24-70 or the 28-135 or the 70-200 are fantastic lenses and they get tack sharp images beyond belief, but others emphatically DON'T say that? Well, it's because Cameras and Lenses are not adjusted the same right out of the box. In fact, I would say that the majority of cameras or lenses that you buy are probably not perfectly adjusted when you get them.

Based on my experience and having read thousands of posts on these forums, it is my policy and advice to assume that equipment is delivered to you OUT of ADJUSTMENT. I now test all my new equipment BEFORE using it professionally. That way I know if a particular lens is front or back focusing and by how much. Once I know that, I shoot accordingly. If it is way out of whack, I get it adjusted by Canon...and then I test it when I get it back, just to make sure. That is just HALF the problem fix.

The other half of the problem fix is to shoot KNOWING the DOF of your shot settings! Know what getting two feet closer to your subject does to the DOF. Know what a change of 10mm of focal length does to your DOF. Know what a single F-Stop does to your depth of field. Don't shoot with miniscule DOFs if you want sharp images. The way I look at it is, if I want a sharp portrait shot, I will choose settings tha give me at least a 10 inch DOF (a person's face is at least that thick) and add more DOF to compensate for my equipments' front or back focusing tendency.

The 10D is no Mk ll as far as I know, but you can get absolutely magnificent images with a 10D, magnificence guaranteed if you know your equipment and DOF settings and shoot accordingly.

[Jesper]

Originally Posted by Mitch

Something you must know about the 10D. Canon considers the 10D a "consumer" level camera, that is, it is not officially a professional piece of equipment. As such, the factory spec for focus adjustment is that the focus point only has to be configured to be "anywhere" within the Depth of Field (DOF).

Note that this is a bit vague. The Depth of Field is the depth range in the image where things will be "acceptably in focus" - this is a vague definition, it depends on what you think is "acceptable". For the mathematics of calculating the DOF, look here (the size of the "circle of confusion" determines what you find "acceptably sharp").

We don't know what Canon thinks is "acceptably sharp", so it's difficult to say exactly how accurate the AF of the 10D is.

I've never had a problem with AF, the 10D is certainly capable of producing sharp photos right out of the camera.

saikidesign, can you post an example (100% crop - i.e. a part of an image from the camera at max. resolution), so that people here can tell you if they think it looks normal for a 10D or not?