Shooting Wedding Formals--quick questions!

[lilpacheco]

First timer here on a wedding if you haven't read my other post. What apetures are you using for big group shots? I have an aquaintance through my best friend who is a wedding photog and she told me try to aim for f/8 if I can with the lighting. Then in another book I read f/11. Obviously if I have rows and rows of people I will have to increase my depth of field, but I am worried about the lighting in the church (I go there so I know). Would it be a total travesty if I could only get my f-stop to 7 with the available light (I don't own studio lighting as I only shoot outdoors for my business)?

Also, I had planned on using my 24-105 f/4 for the formals because of the positioning of the pews being very close to the stairs in the church. Should I just stand on one of the pews farther back and use my 70-200 f/2.8 to possibly get more light in? Would that help to increase my shutter speed?

[lilpacheco]

Nobody? I can't believe I'm the only one here who is having to shoot formals inside a church. Come on peeps, I need help!! Wedding is this Friday!

[Dermit]

Robyn,

In your other post I replied and indicated you needed to learn about ISO, shutter, Apertures, DOF, etc. to which you responded that you are familiar with all this and would not even do this if you didn't. But here you are asking some questions that should be basic knowledge for anyone who is familiar with these settings. it all works the same whether you are indoors or out.

The bottom line is that no one here knows exactly what the church looks like, what the group you will be shooting looks like, how they will be arranged, etc. So it's nearly impossible to give you exact settings. Most people here would have an idea going in and not get it perfect for the first shot or two but would know how to fine tune and adjust to dial it all in.

Personally I think you are going to have a real hard time getting something reasonalbe with available light only, at least from what i gather the conditions are like. And even if you did have more available light and it was all over head it still would not be 'good' light. Even a small hot shoe flash can help you out enormously here... if used right. And if you have two or three you could probably really nail this shot. You don't need big studio lights for this. They would make it easier, but you can do it with smaller flashes.

What I would do at this point is try to get over there before Friday and take your 580EXII with you. Get the closest victims, err, helpers to go with you and try a few things. Start by shooting with no flash, available light only with proper exposure. Crank the ISO and see what aperture you can get with a MINIMUM shutter speed of 1/30. I prefer 1/60 at least but you sometimes can get away with 1/30 with a group if you don't have antsy kids.

Yes, with a typical group of two rows I try to get the aperture around f/8 but it also depends on how deep the group is and what focal length I am using.

Once you get dialed in the best you can lock those settings in manual mode and add the flash. If you only have one flash put it on the same axis as the camera but try to get it up, like on a bracket. Now shoot a shot with the flash on. Look at the results. Next if your aperture is still down around f/4 dial it up to f/5.6 and shoot, then at f/8 and shoot. Look at the reults each time. Notice what is changing. Once you get to a decent aperture start dialing down the ISO a notch at a time and take a shot at each. Go as far as you like but look at your results each time. Somewhere in there you willl find a good compromise area. An image that looks acceptable even though it may not be ideal. Another thing to try in the trials is to bounce the flash. If the ceilings are too high then try bringing a big white reflector. Position it above the flash and angled at a 45 toward the group. Point the flash right at it, straight up. This will diffuse the light nicely but will also take more flash power.

A lot of group shots work well by shooting from a higher vantage point. So, yes, if you have a step ladder or if you are allowed to stand on the pews this could work to your advantage. One of the things this tend to do if the poeple in your group are relatively the same height is creates a shallower focal plane becasue their faces relative to each other will be closer in depth than if you shoot them from eye level when they are in rows.

A cool shot can be done if there is a choir loft and you use your zoom and have them all look up, this would also allow a wider aperture.

[Wilt]

Robyn,
As Dermit says, too many variables for any specific answer to your question. I will state, "Go find a DOF program (free on the web) and answer the question for yourself!
For example, with a 30mm lens on APS-C at shooting distance of 15', the frame is 7.5' x 11' in size. Three rows of people can very easily fit an area 4-5' deep. At f/2.8, the DOF is 7' deep!!! At f/4 it is 11' deep!!!! ...so why are you worrying about needing f/16?!?! A program would help you figure this out for yourself.

[lilpacheco]

Originally Posted by Dermit

Robyn,

In your other post I replied and indicated you needed to learn about ISO, shutter, Apertures, DOF, etc. to which you responded that you are familiar with all this and would not even do this if you didn't. But here you are asking some questions that should be basic knowledge for anyone who is familiar with these settings. it all works the same whether you are indoors or out.

The bottom line is that no one here knows exactly what the church looks like, what the group you will be shooting looks like, how they will be arranged, etc. So it's nearly impossible to give you exact settings. Most people here would have an idea going in and not get it perfect for the first shot or two but would know how to fine tune and adjust to dial it all in.

Personally I think you are going to have a real hard time getting something reasonalbe with available light only, at least from what i gather the conditions are like. And even if you did have more available light and it was all over head it still would not be 'good' light. Even a small hot shoe flash can help you out enormously here... if used right. And if you have two or three you could probably really nail this shot. You don't need big studio lights for this. They would make it easier, but you can do it with smaller flashes.

What I would do at this point is try to get over there before Friday and take your 580EXII with you. Get the closest victims, err, helpers to go with you and try a few things. Start by shooting with no flash, available light only with proper exposure. Crank the ISO and see what aperture you can get with a MINIMUM shutter speed of 1/30. I prefer 1/60 at least but you sometimes can get away with 1/30 with a group if you don't have antsy kids.

Yes, with a typical group of two rows I try to get the aperture around f/8 but it also depends on how deep the group is and what focal length I am using.

Once you get dialed in the best you can lock those settings in manual mode and add the flash. If you only have one flash put it on the same axis as the camera but try to get it up, like on a bracket. Now shoot a shot with the flash on. Look at the results. Next if your aperture is still down around f/4 dial it up to f/5.6 and shoot, then at f/8 and shoot. Look at the reults each time. Notice what is changing. Once you get to a decent aperture start dialing down the ISO a notch at a time and take a shot at each. Go as far as you like but look at your results each time. Somewhere in there you willl find a good compromise area. An image that looks acceptable even though it may not be ideal. Another thing to try in the trials is to bounce the flash. If the ceilings are too high then try bringing a big white reflector. Position it above the flash and angled at a 45 toward the group. Point the flash right at it, straight up. This will diffuse the light nicely but will also take more flash power.

A lot of group shots work well by shooting from a higher vantage point. So, yes, if you have a step ladder or if you are allowed to stand on the pews this could work to your advantage. One of the things this tend to do if the poeple in your group are relatively the same height is creates a shallower focal plane becasue their faces relative to each other will be closer in depth than if you shoot them from eye level when they are in rows.

A cool shot can be done if there is a choir loft and you use your zoom and have them all look up, this would also allow a wider aperture.

OK, this REALLY helped. I'll be at the rehearsal, so I can practice then. I am using the Gary Fong Whale Tail, so I'm hoping that will be okay to diffuse the light.

I guess I was just told it has to be like f/11 to get a good group shoot and I just couldn't figure out how to do that without the shutter being so slow! I just figured manual mode out too, so that helps me greatly!

I mean I know all the stuff you just told me, but I guess I just needed somebody to walk me through it step by step. When I stress out I tend not to think clearly and become like 50% stupider! The 1/60 tip is also good, and that's what I've found from my own experience is that I get blur with anything less than that.

I feel like we are on the same page now--thank you so much!!!

Ps--I'm bringing the step ladder too, great idea!

[Wilt]

Apologies, I just noticed the OP has 24mm lens on FF body. I would not shoot wider than 28mm, to prevent perspective distortion! With 28mm lens on FF body, at shooting distance of 15' the FOV is 13'x17', and the DOF at f/4 is 26' deep!!! Even less of an issue in that case.

[lilpacheco]

Originally Posted by Wilt

Robyn,
As Dermit says, too many variables for any specific answer to your question. I will state, "Go find a DOF program (free on the web) and answer the question for yourself!
For example, with a 30mm lens on APS-C at shooting distance of 15', the frame is 7.5' x 11' in size. Three rows of people can very easily fit an area 4-5' deep. At f/2.8, the DOF is 7' deep!!! At f/4 it is 11' deep!!!! ...so why are you worrying about needing f/16?!?! A program would help you figure this out for yourself.

LOL, cause that's what I was told you needed!! OK, I'm feeling so much more sane now--duh!

[Dermit]

Originally Posted by lilpacheco

I guess I was just told it has to be like f/11 to get a good group shoot and I just couldn't figure out how to do that without the shutter being so slow! I just figured manual mode out too, so that helps me greatly!

Remember that apertures are not the only thing that factors in to DOF. it is also the focal length of the lens and the distance to the subject.

I mean I know all the stuff you just told me, but I guess I just needed somebody to walk me through it step by step. When I stress out I tend not to think clearly and become like 50% stupider! The 1/60 tip is also good, and that's what I've found from my own experience is that I get blur with anything less than that.

I feel like we are on the same page now--thank you so much!!!

Ps--I'm bringing the step ladder too, great idea!

The more that the flash is contributing to the over all exposure the less you have to worry about the shutter speed as tha duration of the flash is so much faster than any shutter speed you are going to use here. But I would still try and keep it from 1/60 to 1/125 range. If you can get away with it being lower this will only help bring in more ambient light (which is usually a good thing).

Another thing to consider is that if you are getting a good mix of ambient and flash for the exposure is that the two different light sources will have two different temps so white balance is impossible. This is where you can gel your flash to match the color temp of the ambient. Depending on the shot and how the different light sources are falling on the subjects this may or may not be a big deal. It usually is not, but sometimes is. Just ne aware of this.

[lilpacheco]

Originally Posted by Wilt

Apologies, I just noticed the OP has 24mm lens on FF body. I would not shoot wider than 28mm, to prevent perspective distortion! With 28mm lens on FF body, at shooting distance of 15' the FOV is 13'x17', and the DOF at f/4 is 26' deep!!! Even less of an issue in that case.

I must have missed this earlier--glad I re-read! I actually just figured this out before I read this using a DOF calculator online. I plan to keep the lens at 24 mm for the formal shots in front of the church. So much to learn, it's crazy!! Thank you for the heads up!

[lilpacheco]

Originally Posted by Dermit

Remember that apertures are not the only thing that factors in to DOF. it is also the focal length of the lens and the distance to the subject.

Ah, yes, I am just now figuring this out as I am using a DOF calculator I found online. I had no idea this was even a factor. Guess you really get to know your specific equipment in and out!

Oh, and great tip on the white balance being affected. I just got an Expo Disc to set the white balance, so I hope this will help to counteract that.

BTW, your tips have been so helpful!! I've been shooting in manual mode all day today and I'm getting great results and really getting it down!! I've opened a whole new world for myself and learned so much today. I'm feeling much much more confident about the wedding now. Now if we can just hold off the rain! I was really hoping to do outdoor shots at this beautiful park next to the church. I can shoot outdoors in AV mode like the back of my hand, so I was really counting on this area to do my fun artistic shots. We shall see!!

[Dermit]

Expodisc will average the white balance but can do nothing for mixed color temp.

In case it rains, take umbrellas and some ziplocs/trashbags and shoot away. Some of the best wedding shots I've ever seen are of the B&G sharing an umbrella in the pouring rain. Look at it as an opportunity, not as a negative.

Yes, when you figure out flash with ambient in low light and get the right mix, and really 'get it' it will open a whole new world. Welcome to the next step up.

[Shooting]

5.6 is what I use on ALL wedding groups.gives me enough DOF for what I need and I use a shutter of 1/60 handheld or 1/30 on tripod to let as much ambient light in as possible. No expodisc really needed..just shoot a white piece of paper in the scene before hand and there is your white balance reference..or put a plain piece of paper or white coffee filter over your lens and shoot the source, there is your custom WB..way cheaper and works no different.

[Dermit]

Originally Posted by Shooting

5.6 is what I use on ALL wedding groups.gives me enough DOF for what I need and I use a shutter of 1/60 handheld or 1/30 on tripod to let as much ambient light in as possible. No expodisc really needed..just shoot a white piece of paper in the scene before hand and there is your white balance reference..or put a plain piece of paper or white coffee filter over your lens and shoot the source, there is your custom WB..way cheaper and works no different.

This is very generic advice that may or may not work at all. To say f/5.6 works on all groups is crazy. What focal length lens? How close are you to the group? How deep is the group? A shutter of 1/30 might work fine on a tripod to eliminate camera movement blur, but what about if there is a small child who does not sit quite as still as everyone else, 1/30 will not do.

The problem with white balance with expodisc, coffee filter, or white paper when there are two different color temp lights falling on the subject is that you will still not get a good white balanced shot. Take and extreme example.... let's say a blue spotlight is on a subjects right shoulder and a yellow spotlight on the left. You custom white balance with expo, or whatever, and what you get will NOT be neutral color on both shoulders. You will get something in between and neither will be neutral.

That's an extreme example but the same thing happens when a subject is standing under flourescent lights and you use a flash to fill. If you balance for flash the shoulders will be green, if you balance for flourescent the flash will be magenta. You solve this by adding a gel on the flash that is the same color temp as the flourescent light and set the WB to flourescent... or now custom white balance by shooting a coffee filter, or whatever.

[lilpacheco]

Originally Posted by Dermit

Expodisc will average the white balance but can do nothing for mixed color temp.

In case it rains, take umbrellas and some ziplocs/trashbags and shoot away. Some of the best wedding shots I've ever seen are of the B&G sharing an umbrella in the pouring rain. Look at it as an opportunity, not as a negative.

Yes, when you figure out flash with ambient in low light and get the right mix, and really 'get it' it will open a whole new world. Welcome to the next step up.

Great idea! It will most likely rain the day of the wedding. So what do I do with the Ziplocs and trashbags? Is that to put over my camera? What kind of weather can my camera take....never even thought about it!

[lilpacheco]

[quote=Dermit;5523261]This is very generic advice that may or may not work at all. To say f/5.6 works on all groups is crazy. What focal length lens? How close are you to the group? How deep is the group? A shutter of 1/30 might work fine on a tripod to eliminate camera movement blur, but what about if there is a small child who does not sit quite as still as everyone else, 1/30 will not do.quote]

Ron, how do you learn all this? Do you carry a DOF calculator with you or do you just know your equipment that well?? Ack, this can all be a bit overwhelming. I can't wait until Friday is over!