POTN G-Series Speed Challenge Rules -- Master List

[teekay]

Originally Posted by BottomBracket

There's actually no problem. If the photographer elects not to name his/her work, the he/she can simply put "Untitled".

But someone - particularly if new - might not remember to actually write "Untitled" and then would they be technically disqualified?

Simpler is better - scrap the rule!

[IainB]

Looking over the competition guidelines afresh, I note that there is a suggestion that submitters turn on Private Messaging so that he or she can be advised of winning or ineligible entries. That may suggest the judge can pm to say "Hey, what's the title?" so there seems to be a lifeline for them there.

Anyway, newbies might also forget to post the model of their camera, or forget to make the photo 640 pixels max. I think these rules are fine, so long as "untitled" is accepted as a legitimate title.

[gkuenning]

Up until "Body Language" I was a new-photo-only guy. I figure part of the point is to get us to go out and think about pictures.

But "Body Language" taught me something new, even though I chose an old photo. I love shooting candids, but I didn't have time and weather to get one that week. Instead, I dug into my archives. The process of picking a single picture to enter in the contest was very educational: I discovered that my best shots tend to come when I have time to sit down and compose carefully, rather than trying to grab a "walk by". I also learned a lot about how to crop and about how to select an image.

That experience, plus the discussion here, has converted me. I like the rule the way it is.

[gkuenning]

One rule change I'd like to see is to prohibit entries that link to photos on other sites. I have two reasons for this:

1. When you're reviewing photos, it's a nuisance to have to follow a link to see an image. It's much nicer to just scroll down through all of the pictures.
2. External sites are unreliable. When I was looking at old challenges, there were several pictures (including a winner or two) that I couldn't see because the link had gone away. That makes it hard to learn from them.

So I'd like to see a requirement (or at least a strong suggestion) that photos be attached as inline images.

[RAW]

Originally Posted by gkuenning

One rule change I'd like to see is to prohibit entries that link to photos on other sites. I have two reasons for this:

1. When you're reviewing photos, it's a nuisance to have to follow a link to see an image. It's much nicer to just scroll down through all of the pictures.
2. External sites are unreliable. When I was looking at old challenges, there were several pictures (including a winner or two) that I couldn't see because the link had gone away. That makes it hard to learn from them.

So I'd like to see a requirement (or at least a strong suggestion) that photos be attached as inline images.

I visited the rule thread to post this particular idea, therefore, I completely agree with you on this comment.

Regards,
Artan.

[dbump]

I'd agree too. I've been posting my images as links, just because I didn't want to cause any storage issues on this forum, but if attached images are prefered in the competition threads, I'm all for it.
If we go that direction, is there a downside to making it a requirement?

[Don Ellis]

Originally Posted by gkuenning

One rule change I'd like to see is to prohibit entries that link to photos on other sites. I have two reasons for this:
1. When you're reviewing photos, it's a nuisance to have to follow a link to see an image.
2. External sites are unreliable. When I was looking at old challenges, there were several pictures (including a winner or two) that I couldn't see because the link had gone away.
So I'd like to see a requirement (or at least a strong suggestion) that photos be attached as inline images.

I believe that all photos link to other sites (unless there is a POTN photo-hosting option); otherwise Pekka would be awash in years of photos. The reason I believe this is that if I delete photos that I have linked, they disappear on this site -- if they were stored here, they wouldn't.

Some users know their hosting site doesn't allow inline images to display on other sites, so you get just the link.

You're right about its being a nuisance, but that's life. Unless you make people switch to other hosts or start their own website, I don't think you can require this. What you're likely seeing (or not seeing) when photos don't appear is that people have deleted them at the end of the link. The link goes nowhere because there's no photo at the end of it -- either because the person removed the photo or it somehow got removed (system crash, account removed, etc.).

Originally Posted by dbump

If we go that direction, is there a downside to making it a requirement?

Some people won't be able to post, which doesn't seem fair.

Just a thought.

Don

[dbump]

Originally Posted by Don Ellis

Some people won't be able to post, which doesn't seem fair.

Absolutely--thanks for the clarification, Don!

[RAW]

Thank you for the clarification Don...Now, I agree with the things youy say...cheers.

[gkuenning]

Originally Posted by Don Ellis

I believe that all photos link to other sites... The reason I believe this is that if I delete photos that I have linked, they disappear on this site -- if they were stored here, they wouldn't.

It's trivially obvious that the above theory is not true, because you can see my photos, right? (See, for example, the "Music Makers" speed challenge.) My laptop is often offline, and even when online I am firewalled so aggressively that you couldn't possibly be picking up photos from me. The Music Makers second-place winner exists in only two places: my laptop and POTN. It's not being retrieved from my laptop; ergo it's coming from POTN.

Examination of the page source on POTN confirms this. Some images are from other sites, but those that (like mine) are attached with "manage attachments" are hosted on POTN.

Some people won't be able to post, which doesn't seem fair.

Quite the contrary: anybody can post an attachment. That's a fundamental characteristic of having the images stored on POTN. It's the external links that are discriminatory: people who have great hosting situations (like me) can post photos that will last for decades, while those who shift from provider to provider are stuck with unreliable postings.

[Don Ellis]

Originally Posted by gkuenning

It's trivially obvious that the above theory is not true... anybody can post an attachment.

Confrontation = The New Discourse?

I hope not. We're a community here and communities depend on cooperation and courtesy. We’re having a discussion and nothing is ever “trivially obvious” to everyone.

If you’ll read the announcement about embedding images at the top of the “Canon G-series digital cameras,” you’ll see that CDS has said “REMINDER: IN discussion threads in informational forums the use of "Embedded" images should be kept to a bare minimum. Use LINKS as opposed to embedding.”

The link is here: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...ement.php?f=17

He then goes on to say that embedding is permitted in some circumstances. The polite thing to do would be to write him and ask if it’s all right to embed images in the Challenge Thread. If he gives permission, you can then request a rule change in this thread. If there is general agreement, you can change the rules and then post the procedure in each of the new challenges so that people know how to do it. I’ll let you contact him since I don’t care one way or the other.

If you then want to make up more rules, you can demand that hosts post the three winners’ photos in the “Challenge Winners” announcement. And you can go on to require posting a link to each of the previous challenges (listed at the bottom of each new challenge) so that people can easily find them.

“It is hard to learn from” is not, in my opinion, an appropriate excuse for changing rules. Challenges are contests, not tutorials. If you learn something, that’s great. But you learned about photography before this recent G-series challenge was begun and there are a hundred other ways to learn better photographic technique on the Internet and in bookstores.

Don

[gkuenning]

Don, I apologize for my choice of phrases. Instead of "trivially obvious" I should have written "obvious to me" or "I can easily demonstrate".

It is nevertheless true that it is possible to post images that are hosted on POTN, and for something like the challenges there are advantages to having the images hosted locally. Disk space is certainly an issue (and one that I considered before I posted my original suggestion), and I wouldn't advocate a general change to POTN hosting of images for all situations. But the Speed Challenges are limited to small images (my own entries are typically under 30K) and relatively few entries (10-20). That works out to perhaps 5 MB per week, which isn't a huge burden.

On the other hand, upon reexamining the source of the Web page, I note that some (many) of the links that appear to be embedded on POTN are actually being fetched from external sites. So perhaps we could just add a note into the rules suggesting that people should use embedded-external images, with a very brief instruction on how to do so. That would take care of 90% of my concern.

[Don Ellis]

Originally Posted by gkuenning

Don... I should have written "obvious to me" or "I can easily demonstrate".

Yes, it became obvious to me that you and I were doing something totally different -- only by reading the rules did I figure out what it was.

It is nevertheless true that it is possible to post images that are hosted on POTN, and for something like the challenges there are advantages to having the images hosted locally.

I do agree that it would be nice to see the images without clicking. And I wasn't being facetious about the winners' entries. It's even worse to click on linked entries there and have to search for the photos -- that's why I downloaded the winning photos in the two competitions I hosted, put them in a folder on my website and linked to those.

Because I have my own website, I've never embedded. Before I sent my previous email, I looked for instructions but didn't find them.

On the other hand, upon reexamining the source of the Web page, I note that some (many) of the links that appear to be embedded on POTN are actually being fetched from external sites. So perhaps we could just add a note into the rules suggesting that people should use embedded-external images, with a very brief instruction on how to do so. That would take care of 90% of my concern.

Good suggestion. If you could point me to the code or technique for embedding, rather than just linking, I would appreciate it.

I would think that we could lessen the load on Pekka's storage even more if we ask only those people who can't dynamically link to embed their images.

Amazing how even the smallest challenge has so many things to consider.

Cheers,

Don.

[BottomBracket]

I have a nagging question - is it possible to see the exif data of the pics here? Thanks.

[gkuenning]

Originally Posted by Don Ellis

It's even worse to click on linked entries there and have to search for the photos -- that's why I downloaded the winning photos in the two competitions I hosted, put them in a folder on my website and linked to those.

And man, did that make life easier for people when reading your comments!

Originally Posted by Don Ellis

Good suggestion. If you could point me to the code or technique for embedding, rather than just linking, I would appreciate it.

I do the embedding by clicking on "Manage Attachments" in the "Additional Options" box below the editing window. That gives me a window where I can enter the name of a local file (or files) to upload. When I click "OK", nothing changes in my editing window, but when I post the image will appear.

Originally Posted by Don Ellis

I would think that we could lessen the load on Pekka's storage even more if we ask only those people who can't dynamically link to embed their images.

Agreed. Now that I know there's another option, since I also have an ultra-stable Web service available, I'm going to start dynamically linking.