Flash duration for arena sports?

[dshankar]

What kind of flash duration is generally needed to freeze the ball in games like volleyball and basketball?

I've strobed my gym but I'm getting a *little* bit of ghosting, usually only noticeable when I check 100% crops. Yet, the pictures are not as sharp as I would like, certainly because of flash duration. I know this because I've got good focus and certain parts of the image are tack sharp.

Is 1/800th fast enough? Or is 1/2000th - 1/3000th necessary or better?

[dshankar]

Bump? I really would like to know whether I need 1/2000th or just 1/800th...

[bobbyz]

How are you syncing at 1/800?

If your flash is high above the ambient, then action is stopped by flash duration only. You could be shooting at 1/250.

[dshankar]

I'm shooting at 1/250th. PWs don't sync very well beyond 1/250th.

I'm talking about FLASH duration. Obviously the action is stopped by it, but I feel its not short enough.

I know I need something faster than whatever my 580 EX II strobes provide at 1/8th power. I just need to know whether I need 1/3000th flash duration or if longer durations are good enough.

[msowsun]

What is the subject distance, and what ISO and aperture are you using?

With your 580EX II at 1/8 power, the ghosting you see may be ambient light not frozen by the 1/250 speed.

[40Dude6aedyk]

Flash duration of a speedlite at 1/8 manual setting is likely to be less than 1/4000th of second. See today's thread: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php?t=611152
and the link therein.

See also: http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/flashdurations.html (found in a thread at bottom "Similar threads")

[DDCSD]

How much money do you have that you can spend on the strobes?

What level of competition?
Are you just using a 580 currently?
Mind posting an example of the results you are getting with exif attached?

[dshankar]

I know, its probably significantly LESS than 1/2000th!

Which is why I'm asking what I NEED, so that I know what strobes to buy next.

My strobes are about 15 feet high in a balcony, bounced towards a 20-30 foot high ceiling. Linear distance from strobes to players on the floor is about 20-40 feet.

2-4 strobes at 1/8th to 1/4th power, I shoot at f/1.8 to f/2.0 (sometimes at f/2.8 with a longer lens), at ISO 400-640 at f/2.0 and ISO 1000 at f/2.8.

[dshankar]

Originally Posted by DDCSD

How much money do you have that you can spend on the strobes?

What level of competition?
Are you just using a 580 currently?
Mind posting an example of the results you are getting with exif attached?

I have anywhere from $500 to $1100.

Currently I use a 580 EX, 580 EX II and sometimes another 580 EX II and a 550 EX. I'm considering buying two more 580 EX II strobes and knocking the power down to 1/8th or 1/16th on all strobes.

I currently shoot high school, and I will shoot D3/D2 next year.

Examples:
Best examples with little to no ghosting are available on my flickr. http://www.flickr.com/photos/dshankar/
I cannot post basketball pictures yet since they have not been processed or printed yet. I will post more volleyball soon :/ I just have no time to edit!!

[DDCSD]

It doesn't help to see the ones that are good. Those look great though!

I am guessing that you just aren't getting enough over your ambient lighting.

But really your only option at that price range is Alien Bees. I would suggest the AB800's. The AB1600's have a bit too long of a flash duration, IMO.

[dshankar]

Well I'm considering 3 options:

1.) 2 White Lightning x1600 strobes, down to maybe 1/4 power with 1/6000th flash duration.

2.) 4 Alienbee B400s, full power 1/6000th second.

3.) 2-3 Alienbee B800s

4.) 2 more Canon 580 EX IIs, all 4-5 strobes at 1/8th to 1/16th power.

5.) Wait for Einstein 500 w/s units, lower flash power, get a shorter flash duration.

#5 is most viable to me, being the cheapest and most portable setup. I can always use more flashes but bulky A/C powered strobes can ONLY be used in the studio or in arenas. Although I primarily shoot sports, I like to shoot everything (i.e. things that DONT need a studio strobe).

[DDCSD]

Just remember, you need to have a way to power those strobes. If there isn't a socket available nearby that can handle them (won't blow a cicuit breaker), you'll need some Vagabounds or similar.

Einsteins likely won't be out for at least 3 months.

I personally think that getting two more 580's would be an unbelievable waste of money. Again, when you use lower power on speedlights, you're actually increasing the flash duration an making your ghosting problem worse.

The B400's may not be enough power in larger gyms, and you really run into power issues.

I really thing you're thinking way too much about the flash duration for HS and most college sports. The 1/1100s (t.1) of the AB800 will be plenty fast.

[DDCSD]

Oh, and you'll likely get ghosting/blur with volleyball hands with anything but the most expensive strobes. Those hands are just moving way too fast.

[dshankar]

Originally Posted by DDCSD

Just remember, you have to have a way to power those strobes. If there isn't a socket available that can handle them, you'll need some Vagabounds or similar.

Einsteins likely won't be out for at least 3 months.

I personally think that getting two more 580's would be an unbelievable waste of money. Again, when you use lower power on speedlights, you're actually increasing the flash duration an making your ghosting problem worse.

The B400's may not be enough power in larger gyms, and you really run into power issues.

I really thing you're thinking way too much about the flash duration for HS sports. The 1/1100s (t.1) of the AB800 will be plenty fast.

1.) There are four sockets, but I might have issues with power draw. I can always resolve this later by speaking with the electrical guys

2.) I might be able to wait (probably not...ugh)

3.) Actually lowering power on speedlights gives a FASTER flash duration, making it less of a problem. At least that's what every website tells me!

4.) Two 580 EX IIs at 1/4- 1/8th power overall give me about 100-150 GN. A single B400 gives me 220GN (according to spec) so 2-3 B400s should be enough power...

5.) The AB800 sounds like my best choice, but I also need to consider durability The plastic body of the ABs throws me off a little...meh, we'll see.


I guess nobody has hard numbers? Like 1/1000th is good, 1/600th is bare minimum?

[PacAce]

Originally Posted by dshankar

Well I'm considering 3 options:

1.) 2 White Lightning x1600 strobes, down to maybe 1/4 power with 1/6000th flash duration.

2.) 4 Alienbee B400s, full power 1/6000th second.

3.) 2-3 Alienbee B800s

4.) 2 more Canon 580 EX IIs, all 4-5 strobes at 1/8th to 1/16th power.

5.) Wait for Einstein 500 w/s units, lower flash power, get a shorter flash duration.

#5 is most viable to me, being the cheapest and most portable setup. I can always use more flashes but bulky A/C powered strobes can ONLY be used in the studio or in arenas. Although I primarily shoot sports, I like to shoot everything (i.e. things that DONT need a studio strobe).

Those flash durations you quoted are the t.5 flash durations. That's the time it takes for the flash intensity to rise from 1/2 peak to peak and then drop to 1/2 of peak intensity. In other words, that's how long it takes for the flash to rise from 1 stop under to peak intensity and then drop back down 1 stop in intensity. The more realistic flash duration you should be looking at is the t.1 duration which is how long it takes for the flash to drop just over 3 stops. At two stops under peak, there's still enough light to register in the sensor. At 3 stops under, middle gray objects will be dark but bright and white object (like a valley ball) will still register.