High speed sync, max sync speed, and outdoor fill questions.

Nielsen277 · 14th of January 2009 (Wed)

I just got a 430EXII for christmas and I was wondering if there were any drawbacks to using a shutter speed faster than the cameras max. sync speed... I've been reading the manual and would like to know more about "high speed sync."

What are the cons of using high speed sync?

Also, what is the secret to using fill flash outdoors? My main interest is motocross. Should I expose for the background/sky with the camera and use FEC to properly expose the riders?

I'm using an XTi with a Canon 50 1.4

Thanks!

epatt250 · 14th of January 2009 (Wed)

Using high speed sync sucks battery power and isnt nearly as powerful as a normal flash.

Unless you are going to be able to get very close to the track then you wont have the flash power to use it as fill on high speed sync.

I personally would not use flash for motorcycle stuff unless it was a shoot for a rider and we could recreate a scene as much as we wanted.

When I shoot dirtbikes is one of the few times I use 6fps, which wont work with flash. You just never know which frame is going to be the best when someone is railing a berm.

With MX you do have the sky background thing to deal with. I have shot lots of woods but no MX. The downside to shooting woods races is if its pretty dense coverage and a cloudy day sometimes you can struggle to get 1/500th. That wont be a problem for MX.

Nielsen277 · 15th of January 2009 (Thu)

I'll be on the track... I can get as close as I want.

My XTi only does 3 FPS, which really isn't that fast.

Titus213 · 15th of January 2009 (Thu)

You have the fill idea correct. Just keep in mind that flash range is dramatically reduced with high speed sync.

As to using flash during a race - I have no idea as to the impact.

Nielsen277 · 16th of January 2009 (Fri)

I'll just be shooting practice for now... But I'm going to get my dad to fire the flash at me when I'm riding just to make sure it's not too distracting

The races at my local track are all at nighttime... So I'm not even beginning to think about how hard that would be right now lol.

Thanks guys!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Titus213

You have the fill idea correct. Just keep in mind that flash range is dramatically reduced with high speed sync.

As to using flash during a race - I have no idea as to the impact.

Titus213 · 16th of January 2009 (Fri)

I would suspect that flash at night during a race might put you in a bad light....

Nielsen277 · 16th of January 2009 (Fri)

The local "pro" that covers all of the races always uses it... His photos don't really come out too good though... He's taken many pictures of me at night and I've never noticed the flash.

Jim M · 16th of January 2009 (Fri)

I shoot drag racing. Experienced drivers tell me they usually don't notice the flash after the lights come down. I started using studio flash off to the side a couple of years ago. I was really concerned that these would be a great distraction. The drivers tell me they are even less of a distraction than my camera mounted Speedlight. However, they don't like any kind of flash while they are staging or waiting for the lights to come down. Not a problem, since that isn't the best time to shoot anyhow. If you are shooting at night, don't bother with HSS. Unless you have the brightest ambient lights imaginable, it will be easy to overpower them with flash depending on how far you are from the subject. Our track is not the brightest, but I can shoot at ISO 800 at f/5.6 at 1/200 or even 1/60 with no signs of ghosting.

I have used HSS as fill for daytime pictures of drag racing. It works, again depending on distance. Just don't expect to fire off a rapid string of images. Our track is aligned running south to north, so at the beginning and end of the season, the sides of the cars can burn out with glare while the grills are in deep shadow. Fill flash can help that a bit.

The main deal is to just get out there and practice.

epatt250 · 16th of January 2009 (Fri)

Yea if you are shooting at night dont worry about HSS. Set to your max highest sync and roll with it. The flash will dominate the exposure and freeze the action.

boog69 · 16th of January 2009 (Fri)

Quote:

Set to your max highest sync and roll with it

Could you explain this statement? Or anyone else. Thanks.

Titus213 · 16th of January 2009 (Fri)

He's saying set you maximum flash sync speed on the camera and let the flash do the work.

1/250 on the 20D, 1/200 on the 300D.

Corser1 · 16th of January 2009 (Fri)

Here's a great article on max sync speed:

http://www.planetneil.com/tangents/2...13/max-it-out/

Actually, the whole site is great with lots of very well written articles.

WillMass · 16th of January 2009 (Fri)

Quote:

Originally Posted by epatt250

Yea if you are shooting at night dont worry about HSS. Set to your max highest sync and roll with it. The flash will dominate the exposure and freeze the action.

This is not entirely true. The flash duration for 5XX Series flashes is approximately 1/750 of a second. Therefore, if you are not panning correctly, or if the subject is approaching you directly, you can still get motion blur. Depending on the speed of the subject of course.

epatt250 · 16th of January 2009 (Fri)

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillMass

This is not entirely true. The flash duration for 5XX Series flashes is approximately 1/750 of a second. Therefore, if you are not panning correctly, or if the subject is approaching you directly, you can still get motion blur. Depending on the speed of the subject of course.

I shoot bikes in daylight at 1/500th and never have any problems with blur. In real world situations it sure seems like a flash would stop the action.

Now if we want to pick apart **** with theoretical situations then you are right. There are instances when it wont freeze the action. I totally agree with you that if I had the camera on a tripod and was shooting a macro shot of the carburetor as the bike flew passed at 60mph then yea.. it might not freeze the action.

However, if you want to pick something apart. Have a go at this article. http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/flashdurations.html

Titus213 · 16th of January 2009 (Fri)

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillMass

This is not entirely true. The flash duration for 5XX Series flashes is approximately 1/750 of a second. Therefore, if you are not panning correctly, or if the subject is approaching you directly, you can still get motion blur. Depending on the speed of the subject of course.

Gotta love that Event System. Very nice.

14th of January 2009 (Wed)	#1
Nielsen277 Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Lafayette, Louisiana Posts: 177	High speed sync, max sync speed, and outdoor fill questions. I just got a 430EXII for christmas and I was wondering if there were any drawbacks to using a shutter speed faster than the cameras max. sync speed... I've been reading the manual and would like to know more about "high speed sync." What are the cons of using high speed sync? Also, what is the secret to using fill flash outdoors? My main interest is motocross. Should I expose for the background/sky with the camera and use FEC to properly expose the riders? I'm using an XTi with a Canon 50 1.4 Thanks!

14th of January 2009 (Wed)	#2
epatt250 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Central, Arkansas Posts: 769	Re: High speed sync, max sync speed, and outdoor fill questions. Using high speed sync sucks battery power and isnt nearly as powerful as a normal flash. Unless you are going to be able to get very close to the track then you wont have the flash power to use it as fill on high speed sync. I personally would not use flash for motorcycle stuff unless it was a shoot for a rider and we could recreate a scene as much as we wanted. When I shoot dirtbikes is one of the few times I use 6fps, which wont work with flash. You just never know which frame is going to be the best when someone is railing a berm. With MX you do have the sky background thing to deal with. I have shot lots of woods but no MX. The downside to shooting woods races is if its pretty dense coverage and a cloudy day sometimes you can struggle to get 1/500th. That wont be a problem for MX.

15th of January 2009 (Thu)	#3
Nielsen277 Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Lafayette, Louisiana Posts: 177	Re: High speed sync, max sync speed, and outdoor fill questions. I'll be on the track... I can get as close as I want. My XTi only does 3 FPS, which really isn't that fast.

15th of January 2009 (Thu)	#4
Titus213 Cream of the Crop Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Camas, WA USA Posts: 18,710 IMAGE EDITING OK	Re: High speed sync, max sync speed, and outdoor fill questions. You have the fill idea correct. Just keep in mind that flash range is dramatically reduced with high speed sync. As to using flash during a race - I have no idea as to the impact. __________________ Dave Perspiring photographer. Visit NorwoodPhotos.com

16th of January 2009 (Fri)	#6
Titus213 Cream of the Crop Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Camas, WA USA Posts: 18,710 IMAGE EDITING OK	Re: High speed sync, max sync speed, and outdoor fill questions. I would suspect that flash at night during a race might put you in a bad light.... __________________ Dave Perspiring photographer. Visit NorwoodPhotos.com

16th of January 2009 (Fri)	#8
Jim M Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,624 IMAGE EDITING OK	Re: High speed sync, max sync speed, and outdoor fill questions. I shoot drag racing. Experienced drivers tell me they usually don't notice the flash after the lights come down. I started using studio flash off to the side a couple of years ago. I was really concerned that these would be a great distraction. The drivers tell me they are even less of a distraction than my camera mounted Speedlight. However, they don't like any kind of flash while they are staging or waiting for the lights to come down. Not a problem, since that isn't the best time to shoot anyhow. If you are shooting at night, don't bother with HSS. Unless you have the brightest ambient lights imaginable, it will be easy to overpower them with flash depending on how far you are from the subject. Our track is not the brightest, but I can shoot at ISO 800 at f/5.6 at 1/200 or even 1/60 with no signs of ghosting. I have used HSS as fill for daytime pictures of drag racing. It works, again depending on distance. Just don't expect to fire off a rapid string of images. Our track is aligned running south to north, so at the beginning and end of the season, the sides of the cars can burn out with glare while the grills are in deep shadow. Fill flash can help that a bit. The main deal is to just get out there and practice.

16th of January 2009 (Fri)	#12
Corser1 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Bay Area, California Posts: 424 IMAGE EDITING OK	Re: High speed sync, max sync speed, and outdoor fill questions. Here's a great article on max sync speed: http://www.planetneil.com/tangents/2...13/max-it-out/ Actually, the whole site is great with lots of very well written articles. __________________ Ray: Canon 5DII / 30D / 24-70L / 85 1.8 / Alien Bees 800 / Canon Speedlites

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