Canon 5D Mk II 3rd Party Batteries

[fdw]

I recently bought one of those non-Canon batteries for my new Mk II as I waited for an extra 'real thing' to arrive. The copy-battery fits and the camera starts up - after you 'agree' that the camera will not give you any battery information. I am afraid to go beyond this initial test. Anybody out there have any insights that will help me decide whether or not to actually use it or throw it out as a bad investment?

[ben805]

Personally I would never risk a $2700 camera with a knock-off battery, if your 5D2 get fried by it Canon could denied your warranty work.

[Luke Cern]

Originally Posted by fdw

I recently bought one of those non-Canon batteries for my new Mk II as I waited for an extra 'real thing' to arrive. The copy-battery fits and the camera starts up - after you 'agree' that the camera will not give you any battery information. I am afraid to go beyond this initial test. Anybody out there have any insights that will help me decide whether or not to actually use it or throw it out as a bad investment?

I'd say test it and then report back! Its not as if you are plugging the camera into an unapproved wall socket! Previous problems have related to batteries overheating in poorly specified chargers, - not the camera. I understand that you can't use the Canon charger and the battery management system won't give a report on the battery condition. But how important is that? If it warns you that it can't report, then Canon must have cleverly built that feature into the system.

[fdw]

You have both addressed a couple of my issues. Batteries supply a charge -nothing more. I think. If there is no need to view battery status etc what is wrong with generic batteries? I have seen nothing so far that addresses warranty issues. The camera started up nicely but I shut it down awaiting comments, suggestions and criticisms from the forum.

[RDKirk]

Previous problems have related to batteries overheating in poorly specified chargers, - not the camera. I understand that you can't use the Canon charger and the battery management system won't give a report on the battery condition. But how important is that? If it warns you that it can't report, then Canon must have cleverly built that feature into the system.

Besides the uncertainty, the only question I'd have is whether the camera will know when to stop drawing from the battery.

The danger area of Li-Ion batteries lies in attempting to recharge a battery that has been discharged too deeply--that's when "blowups happen" during the subsequent recharge. Devices using Li-Ion rechargeable batteries have smart safety monitors that cut off before the batteries are too deeply discharged. But if these batteries don't communicate with the camera at all, how will the camera know when that point arrives?

[fdw]

Originally Posted by RDKirk

Besides the uncertainty, the only question I'd have is whether the camera will know when to stop drawing from the battery.

The danger area of Li-Ion batteries lies in attempting to recharge a battery that has been discharged too deeply--that's when "blowups happen" during the subsequent recharge. Devices using Li-Ion rechargeable batteries have smart safety monitors that cut off before the batteries are too deeply discharged. But if these batteries don't communicate with the camera at all, how will the camera know when that point arrives?

Does this actually matter if the 'blow-up' occurs when the battery is being recharged but not in the camera?

[ben805]

Haven't you heard anything about cellphone battery exploding news in the past few years? imagine those cheapo made-in-china-knock-off battery blows up your 5D2, or worst...blew up in your face while you're taking photo.


http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/05/c...phone-battery/

http://www.engadget.com/2005/03/15/n...s-man-his-leg/

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-10156393-71.html

[RDKirk]

Originally Posted by fdw

Does this actually matter if the 'blow-up' occurs when the battery is being recharged but not in the camera?

If neither you nor anything flammable is nearby, perhaps not.

Here is a video of an exploding: http://technorati.com/videos/youtube...%3DsNeeIzaeYDo

Here is one report of a death: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7117014.stm

[Luke Cern]

Originally Posted by ben805

Haven't you heard anything about cellphone battery exploding news in the past few years? imagine those cheapo made-in-china-knock-off battery blows up your 5D2, or worst...blew up in your face while you're taking photo.


http://www.engadget.com/2007/07/05/c...phone-battery/

http://www.engadget.com/2005/03/15/n...s-man-his-leg/

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-10156393-71.html

Ben

A battery is a battery! Manufacturing batteries is a very low tech industry, easily started in countries with low wage costs and no premises. Most batteries are made in China. Everythings made in China!!! The main difference between items is the label and the price!.
Chinese entrepreneurs follow the major brand representatives around into the factories and then negotiate secondary production using primary tools and technology.

The cellphone and laptop batteries (and power adaptors) that blew up included ones supplied by the original manufacturers Dell and Sony who don't manufacturer them anyway.

The Korean incident was an original equpment manufacturer (OEM) supplied item as well! If it's going to blow up, it will! ($50 more won't save you). How many batteries are in use worldwide?

[fdw]

Originally Posted by Luke Cern

Ben

A battery is a battery! Manufacturing batteries is a very low tech industry, easily started in countries with low wage costs and no premises. Most batteries are made in China. Everythings made in China!!! The main difference between items is the label and the price!.
Chinese entrepreneurs follow the major brand representatives around into the factories and then negotiate secondary production using primary tools and technology.

The cellphone and laptop batteries that blew up were the ones supplied by the original manufacturers Dell and Sony who don't manufacturer them anyway.

My point exactly. That is one of my reasons for this thread. Is a battery just a battery?

[Luke Cern]

Originally Posted by RDKirk

Besides the uncertainty, the only question I'd have is whether the camera will know when to stop drawing from the battery.

The danger area of Li-Ion batteries lies in attempting to recharge a battery that has been discharged too deeply--that's when "blowups happen" during the subsequent recharge. Devices using Li-Ion rechargeable batteries have smart safety monitors that cut off before the batteries are too deeply discharged. But if these batteries don't communicate with the camera at all, how will the camera know when that point arrives?

Interesting and valid point. I would suggest that it is the camera electronics that measures the battery volltage and at the appropriate level, the camera stops functioning. Put the battery in the charger and charge it. That would mean that the battery will not have reached a dangerously low charge and be at risk in the charger.

My opinion....
Each to do their own research!

[Dunnomuch]

Originally Posted by Luke Cern

Ben

A battery is a battery! Manufacturing batteries is a very low tech industry, easily started in countries with low wage costs and no premises. Most batteries are made in China. Everythings made in China!!! The main difference between items is the label and the price!.
Chinese entrepreneurs follow the major brand representatives around into the factories and then negotiate secondary production using primary tools and technology.

The cellphone and laptop batteries (and power adaptors) that blew up included ones supplied by the original manufacturers Dell and Sony who don't manufacturer them anyway.

The Korean incident was an original equpment manufacturer (OEM) supplied item as well! If it's going to blow up, it will! ($50 more won't save you). How many batteries are in use worldwide?

Luke,

What you are basically saying is that a battery is a battery is a battery. This is a very dangerous thing to say. I work for a battery company so i should know. a battery is NOT a low tech thing, and while most battery CELLS are made in China, Korea and Japan. There is a BIG difference between the best cell manufacturers and the worst. i'll narrow down the scope of this discussion to just LITHIUM batteries.

cells are made in china because they have a huge workforce and labour is cheap. the main difference is NOT "label and price" like you have said. the main difference is PERFORMANCE. for batteries very often you get what you pay for.

a battery pack like what we use in our cameras have several components. there are the cells, a protection circuit module (PCM) and then there is the casing and contacts. the PCM can affect the cost of the pack, as can the cells used in the pack. i have seen some chinese cells that look identical to their korean and japanese counterparts, but perform very differently. it's in the manufacturing process and the quality of the raw materials. a good cell with no impurities and a first class manufacturing facility that is very controlled will not have microscopic impurities that affect the cell perfoemance. the electrodes are often wound or folded. a small speck of conductive material like a metal shaving or a difference in the electrode lengths will affect the performance considerably. are the electrodes manually cut? what is the effect of human error in such a process? if the electrodes and the assembly process is automated, how often are the cutting blades changed? is there an inspection process to ensure the thickness of the electrode coating? it's definitely not a low tech process!

the PCM design will determine the voltage cutoff and the safety of the battery if overcharging occurs. if temperature goes beyond a safe limit, the PCM must cut off at the right values to protect the battery and the user. some manufacturers cut cost by reusing PCMs in different models. during a short circuit test larger cells can produce enough current to burn the mosfets on some PCMs meant for smaller cells and eventually this can cause catastrophic failure of the battery. some manufacturers just don't care and they declare the battery safe to use. the governing bodies cannot check every battery that goes on sale in the market so it's basically up to the battery manufacturer to declare if a battery is safe to use. the question now becomes "Do you trust that manufacturer?"

last i counted there are over 150 battery packers in China alone, packing batteries made by dozens of cell manufacturers. just because a cell manufacturer is big doesn't mean they are good. a cell manfacturer making cells for some cheap-assed electronics device is focused on making money and they will not care if someone burns to death. they will declare bankruptcy and then open a new factory right next door under a different name. if they're making electric kite batteries then consistency is not high up on their priority list. top dollar cameras, mobile phones and notebooks i would rank close to medical devices in terms of required quality and reliability. they are used by people at close range. every time you take a shot you put the camera to your face.

companies like canon cannot afford to do business with these manufacturers, so they have to pay top dollar for battery companies that stand by their product and should a battery explode it becomes a very serious thing as Dell and Sony have found out.

i don't think it's fair or even right to say "if it's going to blow up, it will" and that "paying $50 more won't make a difference". I've seen some really horrible batteries in China where the bare lithium cell is connected to the battery contacts and the casing looks just like an original from the outside but there is no safety protection. overcharge the battery and it WILL explode. then there are batteries where cheaper cells are used in place of the better quality options. the cells are not matched, and they go out of balance and the batteries don't last nearly as long as the original stuff. people buy these dangerous batteries because they don't know better.

i'm not saying all 3rd party batteries are bad. i use them myself and i look closely to see how much cost cutting is done in terms of materials, fit, finish etc.. generally if the 5DMkII compatible battery does not have the same features as the original like fuel gauging or charge counting or serial number then you can safely assume this was left out of the compatible battery design.

based on the cost of the battery you can also figure out what type of cells are in the battery. i have to say.. you do get what you pay for, and it's up to the consumer to decide if they want to take the risk or not but there IS a DIFFERENCE.

Kevin

[thatkatmat]

Wow Kevin, thanks for your thoughts and insight, I've wondered about these things as I click "buy" on my $100+ OEM's and my 2 for $15 ebay specials.

[Luke Cern]

Originally Posted by Dunnomuch

Luke,

What you are basically saying is that a battery is a battery is a battery. This is a very dangerous thing to say. I work for a battery company so i should know. a battery is NOT a low tech thing, and while most battery CELLS are made in China, Korea and Japan. There is a BIG difference between the best cell manufacturers and the worst. i'll narrow down the scope of this discussion to just LITHIUM batteries.

....... but there IS a DIFFERENCE.

Kevin

Thanks for pitching in on this Kevin. I bow to superior knowledge. However, the incidences of battery explosions are tiny, given the size of the market. I think it is up to the individual to assess the level of risk they can accept. As you say, there are good clones. Lets see the feedback from users to who go down this route. I don't know if you are aware that there are virtually no genuine Canon branded batteries available in the UK at the moment for the 5D2 and there is a demand. The same problem exists in the US. Maybe your company would like to enter the market as there is an opportunity for profit. That's how markets are assessed.
I think this story will develop and good "third party" products will emerge.

[RDKirk]

i'm not saying all 3rd party batteries are bad. i use them myself and i look closely to see how much cost cutting is done in terms of materials, fit, finish etc.. generally if the 5DMkII compatible battery does not have the same features as the original like fuel gauging or charge counting or serial number then you can safely assume this was left out of the compatible battery design.

I've got six "work alike" 3rd party batteries that I use with my 5D1 cameras--I've never actually bought a Canon-branded BP-511. But those 3rd party batteries are at least true "work alikes." Neither the camera nor the Canon charger appear to be able to tell the difference.

In this case, we don't even have "work alikes." As far as the consumer can tell, there might be no safety meausures whatsoever, and I'm still not convinced the camera is or can meter the charge in these batteries. If the camera were metering the voltage, it would probably show the remaining power status on its gauge, which it doesn't do.

I don't know if you are aware that there are virtually no genuine Canon branded batteries available in the UK at the moment for the 5D2 and there is a demand. The same problem exists in the US.

I can't say what the situation is like in the UK, but in the US the battery problem is more forum shrill than brick-and-mortar substance. Like the distribution of the camera, distribution of the batteries is shallow but wide.

Retailers all across the country are getting a continuous trickle. People are confounding themselves by trying to catch Internet dealers the moment they show "in stock" on their websites, but what's happening is that these dealers keep a waiting list that each new shipment satisfies, but as long as they have a waiting list their websites never show "in stock."

The best strategy is to just go on the waiting list. Pick a store that is likely to have a short list--the local stores are getting their orders met just like the big stores, and getting on the shorter list of a smaller store will get your battery to you soonest. The batteries are coming in.

What is kind of paradoxical is that the reports of LP-E6 battery efficiency in the 5D2 are outstanding. I've talked to wedding photographers who have never yet drained a battery. I got three spare batteries within the first three weeks they came on the market, but the fact is that I've shoot a week's worth of portrait sessions without getting to the 50% charge level of a battery.

I kept eight batteries for my 5D cameras. Is suspect I won't need more than four for my 5D2 cameras. So there may be far less need to worry about spare batteries with the 5D2 than before.