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Old 17th of November 2009 (Tue)   #1
Kingfisher_009
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Default Canon Eos 7D --- Soft?

Hi everyone!

I'm a bird photographer and I'm thinking of buying the 7D, but I've heard that it's very soft, is that true?
I've seen somewhere that the 7D is softer than the XSI (450D) and much softer than the 50D or any other of Canon's new DSLR cameras.
Is it still a good choice instead of the 50D or something? Now I have the XSI (450D)

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Old 17th of November 2009 (Tue)   #2
Rai33
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Default Re: Canon Eos 7D --- Soft?

no and yes

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Old 17th of November 2009 (Tue)   #3
apersson850
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Default Re: Canon Eos 7D --- Soft?

I think I know which tests you are referring to.

I've read these tests, and found that they tested two things.

1. If you stop down a lens a lot, does then the 7D, which has an 18 Megapixel sensor, have a better ability to detect diffraction than cameras with lower resolution?
Not too surprising, the answer was yes.

2. If you take photos with the 18 Megapixel 7D and compare them with photos taken with cameras with lower resolution, but you don't take any advantage of the fact that the high resolution images produced by the 7D does allow for more sharpening than the others, does the 7D then seem to produce soft images?
Not too surprising, the answer was yes.

To be a bit more realistic/fair than these testers were, I'll add that when you sharpen the images from the 7D, you also sharpen the noise, which more or less negates the resolution advantage, at least at lower ISO.
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Old 17th of November 2009 (Tue)   #4
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Default Re: Canon Eos 7D --- Soft?

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/top...01/136#7765183
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Old 17th of November 2009 (Tue)   #5
Kingfisher_009
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Default Re: Canon Eos 7D --- Soft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apersson850 View Post
I think I know which tests you are referring to.

I've read these tests, and found that they tested two things.

1. If you stop down a lens a lot, does then the 7D, which has an 18 Megapixel sensor, have a better ability to detect diffraction than cameras with lower resolution?
Not too surprising, the answer was yes.

2. If you take photos with the 18 Megapixel 7D and compare them with photos taken with cameras with lower resolution, but you don't take any advantage of the fact that the high resolution images produced by the 7D does allow for more sharpening than the others, does the 7D then seem to produce soft images?
Not too surprising, the answer was yes.

To be a bit more realistic/fair than these testers were, I'll add that when you sharpen the images from the 7D, you also sharpen the noise, which more or less negates the resolution advantage, at least at lower ISO.

--This is in Swedish--

Hej Anders, jag är också svensk!
Jag är 13 år så jag förstår inte helt vad du menar...sorry...
Så 7D som har fler megapixlar klarar "grövre" skärpning, alltså att den blir den skarpare än till exempel 450D i slutet?
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Old 17th of November 2009 (Tue)   #6
luigis
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Default Re: Canon Eos 7D --- Soft?

The early tests show the 7D is more sensible to diffraction that the XXD series. The effect of diffraction can be noticed fro F8 and above.
For birds you usually want to shoot wide open since what you lose in terms of sharpness is greatly compensated by the faster shutter speed you can use. In action shots stepping down the lens is not better than using it wide open at a faster speed.
So having said that we can conclude that the 7D is a superb camera for action shots and not very suitable for landscape work.
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Old 17th of November 2009 (Tue)   #7
Kingfisher_009
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Default Re: Canon Eos 7D --- Soft?

OK. Thank you everyone, there's no doubt the 7D is best for me! (If you think about the price)
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Old 17th of November 2009 (Tue)   #8
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Default Re: Canon Eos 7D --- Soft?

I think it's the best crop sensor camera for bird photographers.
Regarding the "softness" issue, some of the above posts explained it nicely, and there is also 3-4 other threads here on forum running currently discussing this (non-)issue. DPreview, Imaging-resource, and Digital Picture, all very recognized review sites, rave about the camera and there you can find proof that the 7D has the highest resolution of the APS-C cameras. I am an anal pixel peeper but I don't get fooled by the "oh, the 40D (or the XSi, XS, XT, etc.) seems sharper at 100%. There are a lot of good explanations for this phenomenon which explain that there is a difference between sharpness and resolving power. Just because an image loks sharper at 100% it does not necessarily mean that it resolves more detail than a less sharp but higher res sensor. If that was true would that make my XT a better camera than my 7D I mean the images from my XT may be a bit sharper at 100% than my 7D. However, it's all about how much detail an image contains. Even if an image is sharper at 100% it doesn't necessarily show more detail than another that looks a bit softer but everything in the picture is twice as big and more detailed.
Believe me the 7D resolves the most detail and is a great camera. Like I said if you're interested in this "softness" stuff check out some of the other threads, where it is clearly explained what's going on and why this is a non-issue.
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Last edited by gabebalazs : 17th of November 2009 (Tue) at 10:04.
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Old 17th of November 2009 (Tue)   #9
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Default Re: Canon Eos 7D --- Soft?

The Digital Picture's very favorable review http://the-digital-picture.com/Revie...ra-Review.aspx points out that the 7D may require more post processing sharpening than some other Canon cameras. This is not a problem or issue, just a matter of learning the appropriate processing requirements for the camera. A lot of the talk about the 7D being "soft" may be attributable to people looking at improperly post-processed images.
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Old 17th of November 2009 (Tue)   #10
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Default Re: Canon Eos 7D --- Soft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by luigis View Post
The early tests show the 7D is more sensible to diffraction that the XXD series. The effect of diffraction can be noticed fro F8 and above.
For birds you usually want to shoot wide open since what you lose in terms of sharpness is greatly compensated by the faster shutter speed you can use. In action shots stepping down the lens is not better than using it wide open at a faster speed.
So having said that we can conclude that the 7D is a superb camera for action shots and not very suitable for landscape work.
This is silly. Cameras do not cause diffraction. The effects of diffraction are solely a function of the lens aperture.

If you compare images at 100% from a 7D and another camera with lower pixel density, taken with identical settings, then the 7D image may appear softer only because you are looking at the image at a greater magnification. An image from the 7D will always have more detail than a similar image from a lower pixel density camera (at any f-stop).
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Old 17th of November 2009 (Tue)   #11
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Default Re: Canon Eos 7D --- Soft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingfisher_009 View Post
Hi everyone!

I'm a bird photographer and I'm thinking of buying the 7D, but I've heard that it's very soft, is that true?
I've seen somewhere that the 7D is softer than the XSI (450D) and much softer than the 50D or any other of Canon's new DSLR cameras.
Is it still a good choice instead of the 50D or something? Now I have the XSI (450D)

Sander Broström

http://www.regulusphoto.com/
The 7D has a magnesium alloy frame that is pretty tough. The only soft warts are the rubberised grips. Even then, the Rebel bodies are made of a pretty tough polycarbonate.
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Old 17th of November 2009 (Tue)   #12
luigis
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Default Re: Canon Eos 7D --- Soft?

Is not silly. The sensor has a fixed resolving power and the same for the lens, in cameras where the lens outresolves the sensor by a great margin difraction is less noticeable. In the 7D the effect is more noticeable.

In other words: what you say is not true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve-R View Post
This is silly. Cameras do not cause diffraction. The effects of diffraction are solely a function of the lens aperture.

If you compare images at 100% from a 7D and another camera with lower pixel density, taken with identical settings, then the 7D image may appear softer only because you are looking at the image at a greater magnification. An image from the 7D will always have more detail than a similar image from a lower pixel density camera (at any f-stop).
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Old 17th of November 2009 (Tue)   #13
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Default Re: Canon Eos 7D --- Soft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by luigis View Post
Is not silly. The sensor has a fixed resolving power and the same for the lens, in cameras where the lens outresolves the sensor by a great margin difraction is less noticeable. In the 7D the effect is more noticeable.

In other words: what you say is not true.
Do you even know what diffraction limitation is?

Just because an 18mp crop sensor is affected by diffraction limitation at F8, it doesn't mean a 6mp crop sensor is going to deliver more detail (at F8).


Quote:
So having said that we can conclude that the 7D is a superb camera for action shots and not very suitable for landscape work.
Let me take a guess. The suitable camera for landscape work is a 10mp camera for a crop. Any more MP, the picture starts getting blurry. Seriously....
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Old 17th of November 2009 (Tue)   #14
gabebalazs
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Default Re: Canon Eos 7D --- Soft?

Then why is it that the 7D still out resolves the XSi (12mp) even at f16 (an aperture good for landscapes)? You can compare them at digital-picture.com
It also outresolves my 40D even at f16...
Nevertheless, I agree that the 7D is not primarily a landscape camera.
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Last edited by gabebalazs : 17th of November 2009 (Tue) at 20:08.
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Old 17th of November 2009 (Tue)   #15
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Default Re: Canon Eos 7D --- Soft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by luigis View Post
T
So having said that we can conclude that the 7D is a superb camera for action shots and not very suitable for landscape work.
Have you tried printing landscapes from 7D files? They are superb. Half of my photography is landscape and I can't complain about the results I get. I used to think the 40D was good ( and it is ) but there is no comparison.

I sold 3 A3 prints from the 7D today and this is just my hobby. The people who bought them were blown away by the detail.

Sel .......

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