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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos RAW, Post Processing & Printing
Thread started 08 Dec 2009 (Tuesday) 19:47
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Printing digital to a c-print: white point / black point???

 
kkamin
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Dec 08, 2009 19:47 |  #1

What I understand is that when printing, you want to set the white point to 95% brightness and the black point to 5% brightness. This allows details to remain in the lightest and darkest areas--so that parts of the image are not just the white paper or solid black ink. What an instructor in school also told me (at least 7 years ago when digital photography was assertively taking over darkrooms) was that: "in darkroom printing you would never have pure white on the paper since a small amount of light would still reach the white areas. So by setting the output brightness down a touch, you mimic the native aesthetic of darkroom printing; and that is what people are used to seeing."

My questions surround printing to chromogenic prints. I use White House Custom Color where they use light printers to make traditional chemical prints.

1. Do I need to worry about the above issues? They seem like they might be only native to printers that spread ink. Are the light printers "tight" enough to allow pure white to exist in a print?

2. If they do have the same issues, does anyone have any tips to make the prints not look like sh*t. I've had to adjust the white point on many prints to WHCC to create seperation, because I've wanted a pure white border, and the background of the print was a (255,255,255) white. But when I adjust the white point, the print loses contrast; I can never get it looking as good as it was before the white point adjustment. I never bother with the black point, maybe that's an issue, but it doesn't seem like it would be.

3. I'd appreciate any other tips for printing to chromogenic.

Thanks, everyone.

Kevin


I shoot with a disposable Dora the Explorer camera
I have a special 18-55mm lens made from tree bark and unicorn farts
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neumanns
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Dec 09, 2009 06:47 |  #2

Pure white (255x3) does not exist in print because of the limitation of the papers.

Some papers are whiter than others but the only way to get them super bright is chemical, The chemicals in turn kill the longevity of the print.

It's a delicate dance of compramise's...

(I guess one should never say never, there's also other facters)

But I should also add...Can you truly distinguish all 16 million colors, if not your fretting over technical stuff that does not actually translate into a problem.


7D, Sigma 8-16, 17-55, 70-200 2.8 IS, 580ExII, ........Searching for Talent & Skill; Will settle for Blind Luck!

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Lowner
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Dec 09, 2009 07:14 as a reply to neumanns's post |  #3

I can understand your teacher saying what he (or she) said about light and printing, but your purely "scientific" aproach to printing is not the answer.

Rather it is about art, not science. Once an image has been processed, does it look "right", is it as you want it to appear? When you softproof does it change, if so tweak the image slightly. Are you using a fully colour managed process (including printer/paper profiling)?

If you are doing all these touchy, feely, arty type things, then print and enjoy the results.


Richard

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kkamin
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Dec 09, 2009 09:02 |  #4

neumanns wrote in post #9163293external link
Pure white (255x3) does not exist in print because of the limitation of the papers.

It does. It is the paper with no ink on it. That's why you soft proof.

neumanns wrote in post #9163293external link
But I should also add...Can you truly distinguish all 16 million colors, if not your fretting over technical stuff that does not actually translate into a problem.

How would you make a print that has a pure white border (255,255,255) but the background of the portrait is a clean white (255,255,255) and make them not bleed into each other?


I shoot with a disposable Dora the Explorer camera
I have a special 18-55mm lens made from tree bark and unicorn farts
I start uncontrollable fires for my lighting
www.kevinkaminphoto.co​mexternal link

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kkamin
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Dec 09, 2009 09:11 |  #5

Lowner wrote in post #9163383external link
I can understand your teacher saying what he (or she) said about light and printing, but your purely "scientific" aproach to printing is not the answer.

Rather it is about art, not science. Once an image has been processed, does it look "right", is it as you want it to appear? When you softproof does it change, if so tweak the image slightly. Are you using a fully colour managed process (including printer/paper profiling)?

If you are doing all these touchy, feely, arty type things, then print and enjoy the results.

This isn't even very relevant to my question but I am color managed every step of the way. I'm using a professional print house that makes chemical prints, and I am using their printer profiles to softproof.

This isn't that scientific. When you allow things to get blown (255,255,255) or go completely black (0,0,0,) in a print, it's generally not good to print that since you've lost all detail. I recently watched a PS for Photographers tutorial by Chris Orwig, he works with Adobe, and he was adjusting his image for print by setting the white point to 95% brightness and the black point to 5% brightness. But he didn't go in depth and he didn't make note about going to c-print versus inkjet or offset of whatever. So hence this post.

How would you make a print that has a pure white border (255,255,255) but the background of the portrait is a clean white (255,255,255) and make them not bleed into each other?


I shoot with a disposable Dora the Explorer camera
I have a special 18-55mm lens made from tree bark and unicorn farts
I start uncontrollable fires for my lighting
www.kevinkaminphoto.co​mexternal link

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neumanns
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Dec 09, 2009 09:24 |  #6

On paper being pure white...You have been mislead, Go get a piece of photo paper, copier paper, notebook paper and tell me what one of the three is pure white.

If your considering your photo paper as your benchmark of pure white then you need to adjust your picture accordingly...But that does not make the paper pure white, it only set's the paper as your referance point.

Your second point is tied into the above answer, but you will not understand that until you get better a grasp of the subject matter first.


7D, Sigma 8-16, 17-55, 70-200 2.8 IS, 580ExII, ........Searching for Talent & Skill; Will settle for Blind Luck!

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kkamin
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Dec 09, 2009 09:53 |  #7

neumanns wrote in post #9164004external link
On paper being pure white...You have been mislead, Go get a piece of photo paper, copier paper, notebook paper and tell me what one of the three is pure white.

They all for for the sake of printing. If you make a Photoshop document and fill it with (RGB: 255,255,255) and run it through an inkjet printer it, the ink head won't touch the paper. I understand my monitor brightness cannot be produced in intensity in the physical world, but that's not the point of my post. I understand the white of the paper is a reference for (255,255,255). If they made a paper profile for notebook paper, I could soft proof it and it would tone the colors on my color calibrated monitor.

neumanns wrote in post #9164004external link
Your second point is tied into the above answer, but you will not understand that until you get better a grasp of the subject matter first.

How would you do it?


I shoot with a disposable Dora the Explorer camera
I have a special 18-55mm lens made from tree bark and unicorn farts
I start uncontrollable fires for my lighting
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neumanns
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Dec 09, 2009 10:01 |  #8

Cheap photo paper tends to have a blueish color as a result of Optical Brightners

High end papers tend to have a warmish trend due to the lack of the acidic optical brightners that make cheap papers appear brighter. (but the acid eats the print over time)

255,255,255 prints as no ink

If your paper is warmish...let's say 254,252,247, Anything over these values will not render.

We can ignore them and loose them, or we can adjust accordingly called proofing.

By adjusting our proof acordingly below these values that does not make them white, it only makes them appear white with the paper as a baseline.

Any color above or equal to the paper profile is gonna "blend into" the paper and become indistinguishable.

I'm not trying to be argumentative...Just trying to help you wrap your head around this concept.


7D, Sigma 8-16, 17-55, 70-200 2.8 IS, 580ExII, ........Searching for Talent & Skill; Will settle for Blind Luck!

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neumanns
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Dec 09, 2009 10:04 |  #9

The short answer is...You cannot make 255,255,255 photo background stand out from the paper.

Since you cannot change the paper values your only option is to change the photo background values....By lowering them from 255 at the cost of a few of your 16,000,000 colors

(but you need to get them below the paper profile)


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Grimes
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Dec 09, 2009 10:07 |  #10

I thought the 95/5 method was no longer necessary because of advancing printer technology. I have not used this method when making prints, and I still get great highlight and shadow detail. Anyone use it still?


Alex
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kkamin
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Dec 09, 2009 10:12 |  #11

neumanns wrote in post #9164217external link
Cheap photo paper tends to have a blueish color as a result of Optical Brightners

High end papers tend to have a warmish trend due to the lack of the acidic optical brightners that make cheap papers appear brighter. (but the acid eats the print over time)

255,255,255 prints as no ink

If your paper is warmish...let's say 254,252,247, Anything over these values will not render.

We can ignore them and loose them, or we can adjust accordingly called proofing.

By adjusting our proof acordingly below these values that does not make them white, it only makes them appear white with the paper as a baseline.

Any color above or equal to the paper profile is gonna "blend into" the paper and become indistinguishable.

I'm not trying to be argumentative...Just trying to help you wrap your head around this concept.

Dude, I get it, I got it the entire time. Why are you talking about this even? Look at the poster after you, there is a part of a color management workflow that extends into output that involves adjusting white and black point values. They are asking if it is still relevant, and I would like to know too. I think it is, since I recently watched a pro tut for PS CS4 that addressed it.


I shoot with a disposable Dora the Explorer camera
I have a special 18-55mm lens made from tree bark and unicorn farts
I start uncontrollable fires for my lighting
www.kevinkaminphoto.co​mexternal link

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neumanns
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Dec 09, 2009 10:22 |  #12

:rolleyes:Why are you asking then if you "GET IT".....:rolleyes:


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kkamin
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Dec 09, 2009 10:28 |  #13

neumanns wrote in post #9164358external link
:rolleyes:Why are you asking then if you "GET IT".....:rolleyes:

I "get" what you are saying, but it's a digression from my questions.

If you read my question, I am asking about whether chromogenic prints have the same printing issues as ink jet prints. I was asking about setting white and black points. I was asking for advice with dealing with reduced contrast after adjusting to a 95/5. And I was asking for any other advice with making digital c-prints.

:shock:


I shoot with a disposable Dora the Explorer camera
I have a special 18-55mm lens made from tree bark and unicorn farts
I start uncontrollable fires for my lighting
www.kevinkaminphoto.co​mexternal link

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Lowner
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Dec 09, 2009 10:43 |  #14

Kevin,

In that case we have both misunderstood, because it certainly sounds as though you don't "get it".

Whether a paper is white/off white/cream is not relevent as long as the image has been checked by soft proofing. Actual tonal values are less an issue than how the image looks. The whites will not be white, but that does not mean that they don't appear to be, ditto the blacks. The human brain is superb at compensating.

I use a Hahnemuhle Torchon paper which is a heavily textured matte fine art "cardboard" with almost a cream colour, yet with the right paper profile, the images I print on it compare side by side to the same image printed on Epsons Premium Glossy paper, which has all sorts of chemical whiteners added to it. It is down to what paper suits the subject at the end of the day.


Richard

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neumanns
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Dec 09, 2009 10:46 |  #15

Your right...I ENTIRLY missed this post!!!

I thought you were having troubles with the basics

My apologies, John

kkamin wrote in post #9163931external link
This isn't even very relevant to my question but I am color managed every step of the way. I'm using a professional print house that makes chemical prints, and I am using their printer profiles to softproof.

This isn't that scientific. When you allow things to get blown (255,255,255) or go completely black (0,0,0,) in a print, it's generally not good to print that since you've lost all detail. I recently watched a PS for Photographers tutorial by Chris Orwig, he works with Adobe, and he was adjusting his image for print by setting the white point to 95% brightness and the black point to 5% brightness. But he didn't go in depth and he didn't make note about going to c-print versus inkjet or offset of whatever. So hence this post.

How would you make a print that has a pure white border (255,255,255) but the background of the portrait is a clean white (255,255,255) and make them not bleed into each other?


7D, Sigma 8-16, 17-55, 70-200 2.8 IS, 580ExII, ........Searching for Talent & Skill; Will settle for Blind Luck!

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Printing digital to a c-print: white point / black point???
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