focus and recompose, I'm tired..

[Jimlevitt]

Originally Posted by mmahoney

The 5D2 is the choice of most professional wedding photographers .. and dark conditions with moving subjects are where wedding shooters earn their bread & butter.

Anyhow, if you do decide to throw your 5D2 out a window, let me know the address

I'd love to hear how you use the 5D2 effectively in these conditions. I know good wedding photographers who switched to the Dark Side once Nikon came out with good full-frame camera. When I'm covering a music event, I find the 1D3 to be way easier to work with - until the light gets so low that I have to use the 5D2 for the better high iso capability. Then, I struggle to compose effectively, especially with longer lenses.

So, what's the trick? How do you use the 5D2 in low light, wide aperture, 70-200mm range, off-center composition, non-stationary subject? Do you utilize the center point and then crop into the composition you want?

I'd like to reach a happy arrangement with my 5D2!

[Jimlevitt]

Originally Posted by Wilt

Yes, the vaguaries of photographer motion is an added variable to focus-recompose. But if a photographer is using a camera mounted on a tripod (to mimimize camera shake), the precision of the math-based analysis is 100% valid. Starting with the optimum (tripod based), one can then add the subjective variable of the photographer. After all, it is possible that a photographer's body swing would shift the camera in the right direction (to compensate focus recompose error) as the likelihood of shift in the direction of making the error worse!

And if focus recompose was such a huge issue, why is it that three generations of film SLR users could use the center focus aid on the subject, then reframe, and we have not heard of the 'problem' until the days of AF cameras?! And even more generations of rangefinder camera users (even with the very shallow DOF of 4x5 and 3.25x4.25 sheet film press camera users) would not also have the problem, even worse with the larger formats that predated 135 format popularization?!

The development of autofocus cameras and higher-iso sensors means photographers are now expected to produce a higher percentage of in-focus images of subjects in motion in conditions that would have been considered marginal to impossible back in the "old days." Better tools can produce better results. The simple fact is that some contemporary cameras do this job better than others.

[Jimlevitt]

Originally Posted by mmahoney

Yes .. correct direction of the AF sensor relative to the subjects line of contrast (vertical or horizontal) is critical.

Unfortunately, the outer most points on the 5D2, when the camera is in portrait orientation, want to find an "I" to acquire focus. Human eyes are not in that orientation. Kinda frustrating!

Tilting the camera can be an effective means of getting the single-orientation sensors to focus - if your subject isn't going to move in the interim! The very least Canon could have done on the 5D2 was to include cross-type sensors at all locations.

[Jimlevitt]

Originally Posted by RDKirk

However, what I said above is still true:

If anyone is suffering greatly from focusing errors and thinking it's because of "focus and compose"--unless you're shooting at macro distances or faster than f/2, "focus and recompose" is not your problem. Find something else to blame it on.

OK, how about this: the saxophone player, whose face I would like to place off-center in the frame, is swaying to and fro as he plays. I can focus-recompose, and try to time the moment when he passes through the one spot where I've got focus - and hope he doesn't lean to the right or the left in the meanwhile - or, if the camera is designed with useful off-center sensors, I can place an AF point on his eye, with the camera in servo, and bang off a sequence of photos, most of which will be in focus. Many similars, but there'll be some changes in expression too. Wouldn't have done this nearly as much back in the film days - it was expensive! - but we don't face that limitation any more.

The 5D2 sometimes surprises me in off-center servo mode, producing a high-percentage of keepers. I'll then move to the next musician, only to have the focus system go on walkabout. For me, it's a frustrating tool.

[Jimlevitt]

Originally Posted by Wilt

Not saying that. Simply pointing out that pro usage does not strive to achieve razor thin DOF like amatuers try to achieve.

You've got an extremely restricted view of "pro usage," Wilt! There's a big world out there beyond the portrait studio. Even in that studio, the people buying the 85/1.2L aren't shelling out the big bucks to use the lens at f/4.

[Jimlevitt]

Whoa, sorry for five posts in a row: this is what happens when you get a chance to read through an interesting thread at 2am on the West Coast. Everyone else is asleep!

[bohdank]

Originally Posted by Jimlevitt

Unfortunately, the outer most points on the 5D2, when the camera is in portrait orientation, want to find an "I" to acquire focus. Human eyes are not in that orientation. Kinda frustrating!

This is where I will sometimes have problems shooting live concerts. Tilting the camera to slightly off portrait orientation, to focus, usually solves the problem.

In landscape orientation I don't usually have any issues shooting using AI Servo (my normal mode for events/concerts) and using an outer point. My 70-200 F4 IS is the lens I usually find mounted on my camera.

I don't usually shoot in extremely low light... typical is ISO1600, f4, 1/250-1/320s. Under those conditions the 5DII is quite reliable, imo as was my 5D, previously.

[Wilt]

Originally Posted by Jimlevitt

You've got an extremely restricted view of "pro usage," Wilt! There's a big world out there beyond the portrait studio. Even in that studio, the people buying the 85/1.2L aren't shelling out the big bucks to use the lens at f/4.

So, can someone provide me an example of a pro shooting situation where the shooting distance is close enough and the shooting aperture is large enough, that focus-recompose becomes a major issue with 15-20 degrees of recompose angle due to the razor thin DOF...and manual focus adjustment is not possible?

The example you cite of 85mm at f/1.2 sees 3.7' on the long dimension at shooting distance of 9'. Shifting the focus point by 12" is 1/3 the frame, and about 6.5 degrees. With that shift, the focus plane moves so that it is .66" in error and front DOF is 1.16" in front of focus plane. So some other situation must exist where the issue is present.

[mmahoney]

Originally Posted by Jimlevitt

I'd love to hear how you use the 5D2 effectively in these conditions. I know good wedding photographers who switched to the Dark Side once Nikon came out with good full-frame camera. When I'm covering a music event, I find the 1D3 to be way easier to work with - until the light gets so low that I have to use the 5D2 for the better high iso capability. Then, I struggle to compose effectively, especially with longer lenses.

So, what's the trick? How do you use the 5D2 in low light, wide aperture, 70-200mm range, off-center composition, non-stationary subject? Do you utilize the center point and then crop into the composition you want?

I'd like to reach a happy arrangement with my 5D2!

The "trick" has already been revealed .. understand the 5D2 AF system (see link to white paper), and then know the orientation (horizontal / vertical) of the non-center AF points relative to the contrast area you're focusing on.

Then enjoy sharp pics

[RDKirk]

The development of autofocus cameras and higher-iso sensors means photographers are now expected to produce a higher percentage of in-focus images of subjects in motion in conditions that would have been considered marginal to impossible back in the "old days." Better tools can produce better results. The simple fact is that some contemporary cameras do this job better than others.

And the Leica still works just fine with a single center focusing aid.

[RDKirk]

Originally Posted by Jimlevitt

Tilting the camera can be an effective means of getting the single-orientation sensors to focus - if your subject isn't going to move in the interim! The very least Canon could have done on the 5D2 was to include cross-type sensors at all locations.

There are technical inhibitions to doing that, which Chuck Westfall has explained in his Q/A column on digitaljournalist.org.

[RDKirk]

So, can someone provide me an example of a pro shooting situation where the shooting distance is close enough and the shooting aperture is large enough, that focus-recompose becomes a major issue with 15-20 degrees of recompose angle due to the razor thin DOF...and manual focus adjustment is not possible?

That would be why pro lenses have full time manual focusing.

We probably can come up with situations in which a pro would want to shoot in those situations, but if a pro found it worthwhile to do that kind of photography he'd get the tools necessary to make it happen. The fact that not every consumer camera comes equipped to handle it right out of Best Buy is all the better.

[RDKirk]

Originally Posted by Jimlevitt

OK, how about this: the saxophone player, whose face I would like to place off-center in the frame, is swaying to and fro as he plays. I can focus-recompose, and try to time the moment when he passes through the one spot where I've got focus - and hope he doesn't lean to the right or the left in the meanwhile - or, if the camera is designed with useful off-center sensors, I can place an AF point on his eye, with the camera in servo, and bang off a sequence of photos, most of which will be in focus. Many similars, but there'll be some changes in expression too. Wouldn't have done this nearly as much back in the film days - it was expensive! - but we don't face that limitation any more.

The 5D2 sometimes surprises me in off-center servo mode, producing a high-percentage of keepers. I'll then move to the next musician, only to have the focus system go on walkabout. For me, it's a frustrating tool.

Sounds like a task that requires a certain amount of skill. When I was doing concert photography in the 70s with a Canon F-1 (original with MF motor) I had to do the same thing, focusing manually.

[AlanU]

I change my approach. When I use the 1dmkIII I compose with the outer focus points regardless of light conditions. With the 5d and5dmkII if the light is ample I'll attempt to use the outer focus points but otherwise I'll use center point.

focus and recompose has never been a problem with me using the 5d's. However I'll screw up shots using outer focus points when I question the contrast/light conditions.

Confidence in the 1dmkIII's af is comforting in any condition.

[mmahoney]

The lens used would have some impact as well .. perhaps future contributors to this thread could specify which lens(es) they are or are not having success with using the outer points.