So you come up with a unique idea for a shoot

[cbknight]

You gather the necessary equipment (ie. smoke machines, gels, props, etc.), acquire the model(s), then do the shoot. It works out as planned and you believe to have a very good set of original/current/happening images.

What do you do with them? How do you market them?

I am just curious because as I hone my skills I come up with some very good images that should be somewhere. I just have no idea if there is a place to market them. I see guys on here in the people section that hire models for shoots they dream up. Are they selling these somewhere? Are they assignments?

I am just confused how you can make money at shooting models since there are so many photogs out there that will shoot them for TFCD/TFP.

I am new to this industry, so take that into consideration. I just don't know how you make a buck other than just shooting for a client that calls for senior/wedding/couple/family portraits. The model industry....how do you make $$$.


Thanks in advance.

[Floriantrojer.com]

There's no unique ideas, probably all been done before, just fyi

As for making money, it's hard, and there's no clear cut way to do so. Some make a lot of money marketing to moms and dads at the football field sidelines. Others shoot animal portraits. You shoot people...

They're all different subjects. The main problem for people has NEVER been to shoot or get creative. The main problem is always how to make money off of it.

And for that, there's no easy way. If there would be, anyone could do it. Your possibilities are practically endless.

Best way would probably be drawing up a poster (seriously...!):

You're on the left side, starting out with nothing
You wanna get to the right side, having whatever it is that you want to achieve.

Then think of possible ways (there's tons) to connect these two points.

[cbknight]

Originally Posted by Floriantrojer.com

There's no unique ideas, probably all been done before, just fyi

As for making money, it's hard, and there's no clear cut way to do so. Some make a lot of money marketing to moms and dads at the football field sidelines. Others shoot animal portraits. You shoot people...

They're all different subjects. The main problem for people has NEVER been to shoot or get creative. The main problem is always how to make money off of it.

And for that, there's no easy way. If there would be, anyone could do it. Your possibilities are practically endless.

Best way would probably be drawing up a poster (seriously...!):

You're on the left side, starting out with nothing
You wanna get to the right side, having whatever it is that you want to achieve.

Then think of possible ways (there's tons) to connect these two points.

Very well said and I completely agree. Here's the deal. It's not really about money as much as it is about recognition. I have a day job. It provides for the family and we get along fine. Of course having too much money is like having too much fun..its not possible is it?

My question might have not come out right. Let me try it again. This isnt about local family/senior/wedding/etc photography. Its about photographers and models. Having no clue as to how the modeling/photography world works.....I dont have a clue as to any of the marketing avenues. It is confusing because models charge to model. Photographers charge to do what only they can do. The only way I see this working is there is someone paying the photographer for an assignment that they need..that someone pays the photographer and the photographer pays the model out of his earnings. My first question is, who is the person paying the photographer for the assignment?

I know part of the answer is mags...websites...etc. But that cant be it because the industry would dry up. You would only need top models and top photographers...the rest of us wouldnt be needed other than shooting flowers and birds.

[SnapLocally.com]

Aspiring models may pay for photos if they need a portfolio or even simple but good headshots.

A photographer may pay a model, but I'd question their motive- such as wanting jack-off material.

A legitimate company that needs photos for ads would hire a photographer (or in many cases pay them with "experience" and "publicity") and either find a model through word of mouth or find them through an agency.

Of course there's these even talent trades like the kind you find on CraigsList which I can imagine largely comprises of little talent in either direction.

[LBaldwin]

It seems that you don't know what you want either. If you want to shoot " fine art " (ie no pay) then why mention pay at all?

You want recognition from who? If are just trying to impress you buddies then get a Harley. Smoke machines? Sounds like something shot in the 80,s...

Model photography is primarily commercial or editorial. So you do work and show it those that hire commercial shooters. Then if they like your work they hire you to shoot for them. You hire a model because you like the way they look, for a certain shot. Models may hire you because they like the way your work looks. Freebies undercut working pros.

[cbknight]

Originally Posted by SnapLocally.com

Aspiring models may pay for photos if they need a portfolio or even simple but good headshots.

A photographer may pay a model, but I'd question their motive- such as wanting jack-off material.

A legitimate company that needs photos for ads would hire a photographer (or in many cases pay them with "experience" and "publicity") and either find a model through word of mouth or find them through an agency.

Of course there's these even talent trades like the kind you find on CraigsList which I can imagine largely comprises of little talent in either direction.

Ok. If that's the case, what is an assignment photographer? The books I read including top notch photographers that are obviously good enough to have a book published and saps like me buy them to learn. They seem to talk about assignments. They are hired to do something right?

Your reasoning to pay a model doesnt seem accurate, or not for what I am talking about. You come up with an idea. You want to shoot it. Create it. Make it happen. I didnt say porn. I am talking fully clothed images. That was an odd statement.

Your assessment of how a legitimate company goes through getting the photos they need for an ad sounds closer to a possibility than mine.

I didnt say anything about craigslist.

[cbknight]

Originally Posted by LBaldwin

It seems that you don't know what you want either. If you want to shoot " fine art " (ie no pay) then why mention pay at all?

You want recognition from who? If are just trying to impress you buddies then get a Harley. Smoke machines? Sounds like something shot in the 80,s...

Model photography is primarily commercial or editorial. So you do work and show it those that hire commercial shooters. Then if they like your work they hire you to shoot for them. You hire a model because you like the way they look, for a certain shot. Models may hire you because they like the way your work looks. Freebies undercut working pros.

I dont know what I want. Thats what I am trying to figure out.

I see some top photographers in the people section shooting models from MM. My question(s) is simple. Why? What is the shoot for? Who is benefiting monetarily? Are they paying a top model from MM and putting the images up for sale on a MACROstock site?

80's smoke machines huh. Hmmmm. If you havent seen the new creative work with photogs gelling smoke on lake piers and in studio, your missing something.

Thats what I am trying to figure out. I have plenty of business shooting seniors/families/e-sessions....I am trying to find out what else there is out there where you can put your creativity to work.

[Karl Johnston]

dont kid yourself, you want money...but if you look at things from such a unilateral point of view you will never find anything substantial from this art.

so stop trying

[LBaldwin]

Fashion photography is about money. period. The same with editorial work. The reason photographers hire models is so they can get a very specific look to their work. You may want any of a zillion flavors of models to fit a givin shoot.

Stay away from microstock, just like "photographers" that undercut the other shooters in their area, it is bad for business. If you hire a model for stock work, to be used for posters, magazines or websites the possibilities are endless. For models to hire you, you need something to show that you are not just another GWC. I have hired models and have had plenty of models hire me. It is a two way street. Often you will make great friends of models so that eventually you have a great catalogue to work from. When a client calls and asks if you have a 5'2 redhead you can say yes I do..

The key is usually twofold, ONE is the models release. NEVER ever shoot without one. Regardless of who hired who, without a release you are dead in the pond. TWO, never shoot without a contract. This goes directly with the release as a required protection for both you and the model.

To my thinking I always find a way to pay the model something. I rarely do TFCD, mainly because that agreement is a great way to find all the flaky models in the area. If you offer $$$ they usually show up ready to go to work. Not to mention you don;t owe anything once the shoot is complete. Any profit from future sales are yours to keep.

The best stock shots are ones that can be used for the greatest varity of situations, like excercise shots, yoga, light weights etc. That release along with the images themselves are gold. The weirder the shot the harder it is to market. Fashion, sportswear, get dated very quickly. Imagine a shot of a girl using an older laptop... as time moves on it gets harder to sell. Jewelery, clothes, hairstyles change often so you need to shoot often and market often too.

There are dozens of books about this and all differ in their approach. Like all work it has a learning curve. If I can find shots like yours in a RF catalog or cd then I won;t buy from you. So before you get "creative" make sure that there are not already 200+ shot of similier style and quality already posted on the web. That is why I said that about the smoke machine.. it is very 80's. The idea is not to impress other photographers, that does not mean sh*t. Impress the folks with $$$ in their wallet.

I have been around a day or two now and it is getting really hard to show me anything "new". Most of the time it is just some GWC who put his tripod in someone else's tripod holes.

[RDKirk]

To my thinking I always find a way to pay the model something. I rarely do TFCD, mainly because that agreement is a great way to find all the flaky models in the area. If you offer $$$ they usually show up ready to go to work. Not to mention you don;t owe anything once the shoot is complete. Any profit from future sales are yours to keep.

This is an important point if you're actually intending to market the photos. Model releases have been broken in court when the photographer was shooting with commercial prior-intent and failed to pay the model a reasonable commercial rate.

I'm not talking about paying top NYC fees for an amateur Tonkawa, OK, model, but if you're shooting a girl for known commercial purpose, then whether she's amateur or not, you're acknowledging that she's doing a professional job--a court would agree that you should be paying her a reasonable rate for a local model.

[cbknight]

Originally Posted by Karl Johnston

dont kid yourself, you want money...but if you look at things from such a unilateral point of view you will never find anything substantial from this art.

so stop trying

I'm not kidding myself. Or not completely fooling myself. My thoughts, for example, when I first started out (not to long ago) I would do a shoot and be occupied for days after processing the shots and learning pp skills or just trying creative angles. After each shoot I would have a blast spending my time trying new stuff. That "high" wore off pretty fast and I started doing more creative shoots. Couldn't wait to get the cf card unloaded to see what I had. I was again content until I got bored once gain because after the initial responses from the model/subject, the rush was over.

So I guess, more than dollars, I am looking to expand somewhat. Instead of shooting some senior shoots today, an e-session tomorrow and a family of four the following day I am looking to generalize what I am more interested. But your right, if I am not making money, that wouldn't last long.

Thanks for your input.

[jra]

Originally Posted by cbknight

What do you do with them? How do you market them?

I am just curious because as I hone my skills I come up with some very good images that should be somewhere. I just have no idea if there is a place to market them.

Ideally, you should try to identify your market before shooting the images instead of the other way around. Even better, have a buyer before shooting the images. By doing this, you'll have a clear direction to what you're trying to achieve in a shoot.
You may want to visit some small local retailers and offer to shoot some ad type photos for their product to get yourself started in making a few bucks and building clients.

[cbknight]

Originally Posted by LBaldwin

Fashion photography is about money. period. The same with editorial work. The reason photographers hire models is so they can get a very specific look to their work. You may want any of a zillion flavors of models to fit a givin shoot.

Stay away from microstock, just like "photographers" that undercut the other shooters in their area, it is bad for business. If you hire a model for stock work, to be used for posters, magazines or websites the possibilities are endless. For models to hire you, you need something to show that you are not just another GWC. I have hired models and have had plenty of models hire me. It is a two way street. Often you will make great friends of models so that eventually you have a great catalogue to work from. When a client calls and asks if you have a 5'2 redhead you can say yes I do..

The key is usually twofold, ONE is the models release. NEVER ever shoot without one. Regardless of who hired who, without a release you are dead in the pond. TWO, never shoot without a contract. This goes directly with the release as a required protection for both you and the model.

To my thinking I always find a way to pay the model something. I rarely do TFCD, mainly because that agreement is a great way to find all the flaky models in the area. If you offer $$$ they usually show up ready to go to work. Not to mention you don;t owe anything once the shoot is complete. Any profit from future sales are yours to keep.

The best stock shots are ones that can be used for the greatest varity of situations, like excercise shots, yoga, light weights etc. That release along with the images themselves are gold. The weirder the shot the harder it is to market. Fashion, sportswear, get dated very quickly. Imagine a shot of a girl using an older laptop... as time moves on it gets harder to sell. Jewelery, clothes, hairstyles change often so you need to shoot often and market often too.

There are dozens of books about this and all differ in their approach. Like all work it has a learning curve. If I can find shots like yours in a RF catalog or cd then I won;t buy from you. So before you get "creative" make sure that there are not already 200+ shot of similier style and quality already posted on the web. That is why I said that about the smoke machine.. it is very 80's. The idea is not to impress other photographers, that does not mean sh*t. Impress the folks with $$$ in their wallet.

I have been around a day or two now and it is getting really hard to show me anything "new". Most of the time it is just some GWC who put his tripod in someone else's tripod holes.

This......is.......excellent. Very informative. Very good advice on always paying the model something. I always have even if not advertising it, but not for that reason. I live right in between dallas, houston, austin, tyler, etc. I am a couple to three hours from all of them but nothing big near me. So when they come to me, Its only right to help out on the expenses at least.

Impress the folks with $$$ in their wallet. That was part of my question. I am picking up on what your saying, but I still dont know who those folks are or how to work my way into their wallets. If we are talking Macro, then I get it. I also get shooting themes that will weather the test of time and not become obsolete. Very good advice.

Anyway. Thanks for everything. I appreciate the info and time.

[Marius B]

Not a pro here, but the pro's I know is hired by a client to shoot specific images.Weather it is commercial, fashion or covers for cd and so on. Havent heard them sell an old picture .

I have sold some old pictures, but thats landscapes

To answer your question why some photographers hire models, I bet it is either because they have a client asking for a specific image, and the model is needed in this, or they just wants to have more images in their portfolio.

[LBaldwin]

You hire models so that you can create without an art director hovering over your shoulder. YOU get to decide all of the elements within the image. That way you can show both your skills and your style.

When you decide to get your business license, set up your business banking, do your CODB, decide on your business name etc. You put your self out as professional. Notice I said nothing about the quality of your images. You can be a lousey photographer and still make good money. Lots of photographers have created how-to books to teach how to make money. Most are not worth the paper they are printed on.

Each business person has to figure out for themselves the best way to make a profit, on their business. There are some ways that work great some that suck and most that fall between.

Thats why the best ways to make money with your camera, usually do not involve creating art, but just taking pictures and making sales. I used to make nearly a grand a week after taxes shooting in banks, churches and clothing stores. Creative? Not a bit. Fun, sometimes. Profitable you bet.

The only thing I feel strongly about is intentionally undercutting other shooters. I try very hard not to do that.