7D Macro Settings

w00tabulous! · 31st of January 2011 (Mon)

Hi everyone! I'm kind of new to this forum and i just hope, i'm welcome

My overall interest lies in macro photography, but to be honoust i'm kinda newb at digital (macro) photography..
In this topic i hope you guys/gals could provide me from some answers to my (newb) questions..? Thanks in advance

Okay, i will start to inform you about my gear:

Body: Canon EOS 7D
Lens: Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM
Extra: Kenko Extension Tube Set (12, 20 & 36mm Tubes)
Tripod: Manfrotto 055XPROB + 804RC2

Next, several questions:

I'd like to photograph small insects i.e. flies, ants, worms.. but also small still objects & flowers.

* What settings should be used (or do you use) onto the 7D when shooting macro (to get the best results)?
(think of ISO / AV / Special Modes / Focussing / Shutter speeds ..and everything else i should think about)

* For greater magnification (instead of 1:1), would you use extension tubes or a teleconverter?
* Is a teleconverter being placed between the 7D body and the lens, or does it come on top of the lens?
* Would a teleconverter fit a 7D in combination with a Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM?
* Are teleconverters / extension tubes advisable for this lens (or just for zoom lenses)?
* When thinking of a teleconverter (x2), wich would you buy?

For now, this is what i remind me to ask you all, but i'm sure more questions will follow because i'd like to learn a lot about (macro) photography.

Thanks a lot already for all of your informative replies.

P.s. Here is one of my first (handheld) macro images: I know it could probably have been much better when i would have been aware of all settings i should implement in my 7D, but still..
i'm kind of proud this was one of my first macro images. And no, the camera was not on auto setting

Critisism is welcome ofcourse

Mil · 31st of January 2011 (Mon)

A lot of questions, I will respond on some

See between your text.

* What settings should be used (or do you use) onto the 7D when shooting macro (to get the best results)?
(think of ISO / AV / Special Modes / Focussing / Shutter speeds ..and everything else i should think about)
All these very much depend from conditions and if you shoot still or moving animals.
For macro I frequently use also tripod and flash.

* For greater magnification (instead of 1:1), would you use extension tubes or a teleconverter?
Both is possible.

* Is a teleconverter being placed between the 7D body and the lens, or does it come on top of the lens?
You can not put TC directly on 100 mm Canon lens, but you could put between the lens and TC one (or more) extensions tubes.

* Would a teleconverter fit a 7D in combination with a Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM?
See above.

* Are teleconverters / extension tubes advisable for this lens (or just for zoom lenses)?
You could use it with no problem, but see above regarding TC.

* When thinking of a teleconverter (x2), wich would you buy?
I use Canon (but 1.4) but Kenko and Sigma are OK too.

mchong75 · 31st of January 2011 (Mon)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mil

A lot of questions, I will respond on some

See between your text.

* What settings should be used (or do you use) onto the 7D when shooting macro (to get the best results)?
(think of ISO / AV / Special Modes / Focussing / Shutter speeds ..and everything else i should think about)
All these very much depend from conditions and if you shoot still or moving animals.
For macro I frequently use also tripod and flash.

* For greater magnification (instead of 1:1), would you use extension tubes or a teleconverter?
Both is possible.

* Is a teleconverter being placed between the 7D body and the lens, or does it come on top of the lens?
You can not put TC directly on 100 mm Canon lens, but you could put between the lens and TC one (or more) extensions tubes.

* Would a teleconverter fit a 7D in combination with a Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM?
See above.

* Are teleconverters / extension tubes advisable for this lens (or just for zoom lenses)?
You could use it with no problem, but see above regarding TC.

* When thinking of a teleconverter (x2), wich would you buy?
I use Canon (but 1.4) but Kenko and Sigma are OK too.

Great info. I was also thinking about this with my 100L.

w00tabulous! · 31st of January 2011 (Mon)

Hi Mil, thanks for your information.

If i understand right, this teleconverter;
http://www.kenkoglobal.com/TP-PRO300AF-DGX1_4-2X.html
doesn't fit my EOS 7D body + 100mm macro lens without the use of at least one extension tube.

Well this is good to know, but obviously i first need to know how to make nice macro shots with a 1:1 scale. For macro photography, there must be some settings in the 7D wich remainly stay the same in some kind of matter. For example focussing. Do i need to use AI Servo? Must i uso a big aperture, and/or high ISO? Do i need to shoot at one shot / high speed / burst? ..and so on and so on.

If someone could please provide me from a little more information about this (or give me some examples when snapping i.e. a moving ant, or a still flower or just something else) this would be very helpful to me.

You see, i'd like to learn a lot more about this and i just can't find desent information on the web about this. Kinda frustrating

I know every situation is different, but there must be some guidlines to follow. Any idea's are appreaciated. Thanks very much!

Bill Boehme · 31st of January 2011 (Mon)

Considering the resolution of the 7D, it is hard to imagine why one would need or want something greater than life size unless you are planning on using it as an alternative to a microscope. The 100 mm lens that you mention is an extremely sharp lens and you need to be aware that any teleconverter on the lens will degrade the sharpness a bit. As previously mentioned, a Canon teleconverter can't be mated directly to the lens because the TC lens elements extend too far beyond the mounting surface, but it would be physically possible with an extension tube placed between them. In the real world, that might be an undesirable combination. Being a macro shooter, you probably are well aware that with a TC and extension tube mated together on the lens it is possible to have the focus occur behind the objective lens which is not a very useful situation.

Extension tubes are for macro lenses, but can be used with telephoto lenses when shortening the minimum shooting distance is desired. Teleconverters are strictly intended for telephoto lenses -- either prime or zoom.

Bill Boehme · 31st of January 2011 (Mon)

There is an important piece of equipment that you have not considered yet -- a focusing rail. I would say to forget about AF and manually focus on your subject. The reason is that you are trying to get a very tiny point in sharpest focus and the AF system looks at a much larger area. For this reason, using AF can be hit and miss. The focusing rail is for fine tuning the focus. Once you have set the magnification that you want, any sort of focusing on the lens is only going to mess that up and give you a different magnification. The solution is a focusing rail that goes between the tripod head (ballhead, gimbal head, pan head, or what-not-head) and the camera/lens. The focusing rail then can be used to move the camera/lens back and forth (and side to side) to get the sharpest focus. You should buy the mounting foot that goes with this lens in order to get the best balance rather than mounting to the camera body. Make sure that the tripod you get has a reversible center post so that the camera can be mounted beneath the tripod. POTN has a Talk about Macro sub forum where the experts there can give better advice on what you may need.

amfoto1 · 31st of January 2011 (Mon)

Welcome to POTN...

Quote:

I'd like to photograph small insects i.e. flies, ants, worms.. but also small still objects & flowers.

* What settings should be used (or do you use) onto the 7D when shooting macro (to get the best results)?
(think of ISO / AV / Special Modes / Focussing / Shutter speeds ..and everything else i should think about)

First, for macro shooting it's often necessary to stop down quite a bit to get adequate depth of field (DOF). The higher your magnification, the longer your focal length, the closer you are to your subject, the more you will need smaller apertures to get enough DOF. Notice in your sample image of the dragon or damsel fly how little is in focus. You shot that at f2.8, or wide open with your 100mm macro lens. This isn't a high magnification shot, either. Perhaps 1:3 or 1:2, I'd guess. You'll need to experiment with f5.6 , f11, and even smaller to see the effects at different magnifications, so that you'll know what to expect.

In a sense, of your exposure settings are derived from DOF requirements that are of great importance with macro photography. The f-stop you have to use to achieve adequate DOF will dictate what ISO and shutter speed combinations you'll need to use (and/or if you need to use flash).

Of course you'll want to keep shutter speeds reasonable, but your lens has I.S. which might help a little. You may be able to handhold higher magnification shots at 1/100, 1/80, 1/60. Experiment and see what works for you. Each of us is different how much Image Stabilization helps us. I don't use a macro lens with I.S., so can't say how much it might help. I do use it on longer telephotos and find it's very helpful! (I don't feel the need for I.S. on lenses shorter than about 100mm.... Sure, I'd take it if it were free, but it's not high priority for me, with shorter focal lengths.)

Too low a shutter speed will result in all over image blur from camera shake, even with I.S. Too high an ISO will start to cost image quality. You have to learn to balance these things to get the shots you want.

Both macro flash and steadying devices such as your tripod may be necessary to get adequate DOF/f-stop and shutter speeds/ISOs. You can also use a monopod for some types of macro shots.

For simple flash, I suggest getting a single 430EX or 580EX and using it on an off-camera-shoe-cord, handheld off to the side and above your subject. This works pretty darned well, since the flash is like a giant softbox to your tiny subject. But sometimes the flash is too powerful. To solve that, just go to a pharmacy and get a roll of white gauze bandage. Snip off a piece and use it to cover the flash tube, held in place with a rubber band. This both diffuses the flash and reduces it's output. You can add layers of gauze to further reduce output, if needed. Normally the light "wraps around" your subject pretty well so you don't get too deep shadows, but if you wish you can also use a reflector opposite the flash to bounce some light into the shadows. Experiment with shiny silver, matte silver, shiny gold, matte gold or combinations to see what you like best.

There are more complex flash setups. Personally I don't like ring lites except with really high magnification work. In many situations they just give too flat light, that might be great for cataloging stamps, scientific work, or dentistry... But isn't what I want in my photos.

I use the Canon MT 24EX Twinlite, modified by mounting the two flash heads on a Lepp/Stroboframe dual flash bracket. It works well, but is a pretty big rig to haul around all the time. The single flash solution mentioned above is easier, plus it's usable for a lot more than just macro.

On 7D in particular, for most accurate AF focusing, it might be helpful to use the Spot Focus mode, with a single AF point.

However, as someone already mentioned, it's often just easier to manually focus macro shots. To do that, move the entire camera and lens closer to or further from the subject to get it in focus. The focus ring on the lens itself almost acts more like a zoom ring when doing this.

On a monopod, use a small ballhead on top of it that's slightly "loose" to allow you to rock back and forth to focus.

On a tripod, a focus rail or "focusing stage" is another method. A "low tech" alternative if your lens has the tripod mounting ring accessory is to use an Arca-Swiss style quick release system, and simply install a longer than usual lens mounting plate, that will allow you to slide the whole rig closer to or further from your subject.

Set your camera to One Shot AF and set up a focus point before turning the lens to MF and you will be able to use the AF confirmation lamp (and beep, if it's enabled) to help with manual focus.

Normally I'd set the camera to take single images, but if I'm having trouble steadying it I might set to a high frame rate and let rip with a fast series of shots, in hopes that one of them will be steady and in focus!

Quote:

* For greater magnification (instead of 1:1), would you use extension tubes or a teleconverter?
* Is a teleconverter being placed between the 7D body and the lens, or does it come on top of the lens?
* Would a teleconverter fit a 7D in combination with a Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM?
* Are teleconverters / extension tubes advisable for this lens (or just for zoom lenses)?
* When thinking of a teleconverter (x2), wich would you buy?

For higher than 1:1 magnification, you just need to use extension tubes, not the teleconverter. In general, a teleconverter costs too much light and image quality. A 1.4X teleconverter costs one stop of light. A 2X costs two stops. Worse, using these you will find DOF even shallower, and will need to stop down more, plus it will be even harder to keep a steady shot. All this on top of the fact that the additional optics often costs some image quality, too. Some combos of teleconverter and lens might work well. Others might not. If you decide to go this route, pick out whatspecific teleconverter you are considering, then ask here on POTN if others have used it with your particular lens, to see how they think it works (get image samples if possible).

Canon's teleconverters have a protruding front element, which means they can't be directly mounted behind the lens. However, yes, as noted you can add a 10mm or 12mm extension tube for a work-around, if you still want to use a teleconverter/lens combo.

For higher magnification, all you really need to do is put the 20mm or 36mm macro extension tube from the set you already have behind your 100mm lens. Try it to see the additional magnification that's possible. You can stack two or three tubes if you wish, for even higher magnification. But frankly, for most macro you might find the 1:1 the lens can do is plenty. In fact, many people seldom go much beyond 1:2 or half life size.

For really high magnification, there are bellows, which are really just much larger extension tubes that are also highly adjustable. However they are a bit of a pain to use, big and bulky an rather fragile. However, most are difficult to use with electronically controlled cameras and lenses. There are no contacts between the lens and camera, with the bellows in between. That means you lose AF (not a big deal) as well as aperture control (a big deal). I think Novoflex might offer a bellows that will maintain electronic contacts on the Canon lens mount, but it's likely quite expensive.

Canon also offers the MP-E 65mm lens for super high magnification. This lens offers 1:1 to 5:1 mag. In other words, it picks up where your lens leaves off, then goes as high as five times magnification. It's strictly manual focus and difficult to work at these high magnifications, so this lens is not something I'd recommend to someone just starting out.

You can probably get close to 2:1 or twice life size with your current lens plus the macro extension tubes you have.

There are some great books on doing macro that I'd recommend you get and read. They cover a lot more detail than we can here.

Tomash · 31st of January 2011 (Mon)

Without trying to sound presumptuous, I'd like to recommend the following lectures. I think they might clear up a lot of the questions you're asking.

http://photography-on-the.net/forum/...d.php?t=414088

w00tabulous! · 31st of January 2011 (Mon)

Thanks Bill Boehme and amfoto1 for taking the time to provide a rooky from this awesome information.
With this i've learned a lot already. I quess it's time for me to buy me a 'focus rail', a 'lens mount' and a desent flash (430EX or mothership 580EX).
Manual focus it is than

F2.8 isn't always the best option i see.. when thinking of DOF. To be honoust, i always thought the only option for this lens was F2.8..
Okay you'll probably laugh now sindce this really shows what kind of newby i am to digital photography.. Anyway, DOF seems to be the first thing to take in mind when willing to take a photo?!
Am i right when i say: The bigger the F number; the sharper the whole picture will be (i.e. F 20) and the smaller the F number (i.e. F 2.8) the surroundings become more out of focus?

Thanks again for the great tips (aswell as for the flash- workaround).
I was planning to buy me a ringlite MR-14? But now, i changed my mind.

As what you mentioned there, Tomash: You are absolutely right. It doesn't sound presumptuous because it's a fact.
I don't know the basics yet. So thank you for your comment aswell. I've got some reading / learning todo. I will also buy me some books about macro- photography.

One more question a.t.m: Do any of you use LiveView for focussing at macro shoots?
I have noticed the display 99 of 100% of times gives a much nicer result / preview than the photo actually is / will be on the computer.
This is probably because of the small display screen wich crops the photo and makes it look like it is much better?
I quess you don't advice me to focus using LiveView, but still i'm just asking to be sure..?

Thanks again & best regards from The Netherlands

P.s. I'm glad i didn't bring my extension tubes back to the store and got me a teleconverter instead.

Bill Boehme · 31st of January 2011 (Mon)

On one hand, macro is photography, but on the other hand, it is very different from most other types of photography. It can be like learning from the beginning how to do photography.

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00tabulous!

... Anyway, DOF seems to be the first thing to take in mind when willing to take a photo?!

It is a very important consideration and it depends on the subject and what you want to achieve as the final result. Because of the technical nature of macro photography, everything is important: camera shake, focus, DOF, etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00tabulous!

... Am i right when i say: The bigger the F number; the sharper the whole picture will be (i.e. F 20) and the smaller the F number (i.e. F 2.8) the surroundings become more out of focus?

That is a good summary of how aperture affects the image. When you use a large aperture like f/2.8 the DOF is very thin, but the small area that is in focus will be as sharp as when using a much smaller aperture like f/16. Sometimes your subject will not require a great DOF, such as a macro image of a coin. Most of the time, however, greater DOF is preferable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00tabulous!

... One more question a.t.m: Do any of you use LiveView for focussing at macro shoots?

Live View is one of the most useful features for macro photography. It makes focusing much easier when the camera is located such that getting your eye to the viewfinder would be difficult. Live View also eliminates the vibration caused by the mirror flipping up in normal operation. Also, use Silent Shooting Mode 1 in combination with Live View to eliminate most of the vibration caused by shutter actuation because in this mode the first shutter curtain is electronic rather than mechanical. Use the X10 view in order to get the most accurate manual focus.

w00tabulous! · 1st of February 2011 (Tue)

Thanks Bill Boehme. All is clear to me so far, except, what do you mean by X10 view?
Or is X10 another description of LiveView (Lv)?

w00tabulous! · 1st of February 2011 (Tue)

And another question:

Is this, http://www.manfrotto.com/product/837..._Sliding_Plate the correct 'focus rail' for my Manfrotto tripod, or do you suggest buying another one? Thnx again!

amfoto1 · 1st of February 2011 (Tue)

Yes, your 100mm lens probably stops down as small as f32.

Be aware that at particularly small apertures, with digital cameras you start to get some loss of image quality due to diffraction. You should probably test your camera and lens at all the possible apertures and inspect the images to see the effect. f8 is pretty safe. I'll use f11 and occasionally f16 on crop sensor cameras, when DOF demands it, altho there is a little loss of micro-detail. f22 and smaller starts to show more loss of micro-detail. I'll use f22 on a full frame camera... maybe even f32 if needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by w00tabulous!

And another question:

Is this, http://www.manfrotto.com/product/837..._Sliding_Plate the correct 'focus rail' for my Manfrotto tripod, or do you suggest buying another one? Thnx again!

Sorry, I haven't used or seen that plate... It appears to slide side-to-side, rather than forward and backward (but it might be possible to use both ways... I just don't know). The forwards and backwards movement is what you need for macro focusing. The side-to-side might be handy for composition. Adorama used to sell a focusing stage that did both, but it was big and heavy! (Heck, I whine about the weight of even the smaller, ligher focusing stages

)

I've converted to Arca-Swiss type quick releases because they are more univerally available. (I used to use Manfrotto/Bogen, but they have had three or four different types of quick releases over the years, which are mostly unique to them, were sometimes a bit bulky and could be frustrating to find and keep tight on the lens or camera. I do have some modified Manfrotto/Bogen items, including small ballheads where I replaced the Bogen style release with an Arca-Swiss platform. I still use the large Bogen release system on my 4X5 field camera.)

The Arca-Swiss style of QR is simple, and the A-S lens plates just naturally allow for sliding. This is not only handy for macro, it's also important when shooting with large lenses on gimbal mounts, when you have to slide the lens/camera assembly to achieve balance.

If you wish, you can see examples of the A-S QR system at www.kirkphoto.com, www.reallyrightstuff.com, www.tripodhead.com, www.rue.com, www.birdsasart.com and elsewhere.

In addition to using an extra long lens plate on my macro lenses that have tripod rings, I also have the Kirk macro focusing stage and an old Minolta macro focusing stage (which is a bit bulky). You can sometimes pick up a focusing stage off an auction pretty cheaply. Used are generally just fine, there's not much to wear out or break on them.

To use any of these you will probably want a tripod mounting ring for your lens. The 100mm macro Canon doesn't come with one (the 180mm and 65mm MP-E both do... smaller lenses such as the 50/2.5 and 60/2.8 EF-S macro don't have the option of fitting a ring). You can mount to the underside of your camera instead, but that's pretty unbalanced with the bigger lenses.

You might also want to look at compatible flash brackets, single or double armed. If you try working with a single flash on one of these, I'd suggest one of the smaller flashes such as the 430EX II or even the 270EX or 220EX. The latter two are highly automated and the 220EX is an older model that's likely only available used now.

Yes, where he wrote X10 view Bill is referring to using Live View, then zooming in to 10X to better set your focus. Definitely a possibly useful technique (and the new 60D's neat articulated LCD would be ideal for this, since you often end up working at low levels or odd angles). An alternative is an angle finder that fits to your viewfinder.

There are third party tripod mounting rings, flashes and angle finders, that might offer some savings.

I highly recommend heading over to Amazon and looking for books about macro photography. It's a very complex photographic specialization and there are many "tricks" and techniques. Some of the top wildlife and nature photographers have written excellent books about the subject. Look for "how to" books by Joe McDonald, Art Wolfe, John Shaw, Tim Fitzharris, Heather Angel and others. I think Bryan Peterson has a new book out about macro, but haven't read it.

In addition, I very highly recommend Peterson's "Understanding Exposure". It's a must read for new photographers of all types. Even old farts like me can learn a bunch of new tricks from it.

Bill Boehme · 1st of February 2011 (Tue)

The Manfrotto focusing rail or slider is a very good one, but only moves back and forth. For sideways movement, you might need to adjust the ballhead or shift the tripod. A much lower cost focusing rail is the Super Mag slider made by Velbon. The Velbon unit does not have the nice low profile of more expensive units and may not have quite as smooth movement, but it is still adequate for the job. I modified mine by flipping the mounting plate around to shorten the front-to-back length. I also attached an Arca-Swiss style clamp on top and plate on the bottom for quick mounting to a ballhead and to the lens mounting foot.

The zoom button in the upper right corner of the camera back can be used to see an X5 (times five) or an X10 (times ten) view during Live View shooting. I have an Angle Finder C that has an X 1.25 and an X 2.5 setting, but it is not nearly as useful as magnifying the Live View.

w00tabulous! · 1st of February 2011 (Tue)

Quote: