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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 18 Apr 2010 (Sunday) 20:35
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Photographer or camera?

 
FlyingPhotog
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Apr 18, 2010 23:42 |  #16

I've yet to meet any camera that can put together a marketing plan and sell its own images...

It's the photographer. ;)


Jay
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MrWho
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Apr 19, 2010 00:37 |  #17

bjyoder wrote in post #10020982 (external link)
A new co-worker has been into photography for quite some time. He summed this argument up best when he told me one night: Get the picture - that's all that matters. Figure the rest out later.

You can go 'round and 'round about gear, but can you get the shot? Yes, some gear will make getting that shot easier, and you can't get some shots without certain gear. Most tools do fine enough for normal, day-to-day shooting. If you find that your tools are not doing what you need them to in a day-to-day setting, you need new tools; it's as easy as that!

Agreed. That's more akin to what I'm getting at. The issue is more about people who rush to "user error" when someone's getting 1/4 or 0"3 at ISO 1600 and getting blurry images. On basic bodies the only remaining ISO is 3200 and that's not something that should really be used lightly by inexperienced users.

Tee Why wrote in post #10021085 (external link)
Better gears allow for more flexibility and makes the job easier or the results better. So it helps to that degree.

True. The other points touch up on good ideas too. Too many people speak as if the only determining factor in a good photograph is the photographer which is just plain wrong. The points about noise and DOF really put things into perspective between all bodies regardless of make.

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #10021333 (external link)
I've yet to meet any camera that can put together a marketing plan and sell its own images...

It's the photographer. ;)

On one hand I'd be the first in line to by that, on the other, that can't possibly end well!

I love the sig btw. There's something about viewing something on a computer screen and the urge to zoom in to 200% :oops:


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neilwood32
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Apr 19, 2010 07:27 |  #18

It isn't the gear that makes great photographs, its the photographer.

This is especially true when talking about sports.

Hand a good pro a point and shoot and after a short while learning the camera he will still be able to capture great photographs. How? He knows whay peak action is and when to capture it.

Give a dufus a 1Dmk3 with $$$$$ of glass and he will probably still not capture the frame the pro did.

Why? The pro has the knowledge of how to overcome limitations.

A lot of working pros have probably came from film where ISO xx,xxx wasnt available so learned how to capture the shot using what was available (ISO 3200) and work around it.

Newer and better gear helps but it does not make the end result.


Having a camera makes you no more a photographer than having a hammer and some nails makes you a carpenter - Claude Adams
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jetcode
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Apr 19, 2010 07:42 |  #19

this is art ... people produce portfolios with $35 holgas and pin hole view cameras ... gear matters




  
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neil_r
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Apr 19, 2010 07:45 |  #20

Artist or Brushes
Chef or Pans
Driver or Car
Piano shifter or Piano Player

Boy has this one been done to death ........


Neil - © NHR Photography
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sjones
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Apr 19, 2010 08:21 |  #21

MrWho wrote in post #10021603 (external link)
...Too many people speak as if the only determining factor in a good photograph is the photographer which is just plain wrong...



Too many people?

This is one of the last sites on the planet that dismisses the significance of gear; on the contrary. Consequently, it is often the deification of expensive gear that prompts reminders about the importance of the photographer, not the other way around.

I think most people on this site realize that gear is important to some extent, but it depends on the needs of the photographer (putting aside wants for the moment). Not everyone needs a clean photo of a bullet passing through an apple in low light conditions. Moreover, as repeatedly stressed already, if one's skills are lacking, gear is not going to help.

The worst thing one can impart on this site is the notion that buying up will always automatically lead to improved photos.

The bottom line is that despite all the advances in technology, photography over the past century has expanded in terms of style and possibilities, but not in overall quality.


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MrWho
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Apr 19, 2010 16:24 |  #22

sjones wrote in post #10022878 (external link)
Too many people?

This is one of the last sites on the planet that dismisses the significance of gear; on the contrary. Consequently, it is often the deification of expensive gear that prompts reminders about the importance of the photographer, not the other way around.

True. I'm not specifically speaking about POTN but general. The worst offender or where "too many people" exists is on another forum that I stopped going to a long while ago because of people being so defensive of their gear that if someone had an actual problem with their camera, they were beaten into the ground for daring to suggest there was a defective unit out there. It also occurs on other sites but with less frequency. There were a couple threads on here where that also occurred but it was only a couple of threads so nothing significant.

POTN is actually a great place in regards to the latter point since there are many posts complaining about cameras where other more experienced users offered help to newbies and amateurs who had were just learning, everything from noise to OOF shots. If it wasn't for POTN, I likely would have either given up DSLRs or exchanged my camera just days after I bought it, there are really many great resources here.

(referring to the whole post) Something just really rubbed me the wrong way yesterday with a certain product not performing to the level that is/was expected of it in the sense that it worked perfectly in low light yet failed horribly to work to the same standards in good daylight. It's either a defective piece of equipment or expectations were too high of it. It's having a "good day" today and is working more or less the way it should.


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nonameowns
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Apr 19, 2010 23:19 |  #23

hm a pro can be limited by entry level gears
a noob can just shoot on auto on pro gears and no1 can tell the difference between


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FlyingPhotog
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Apr 19, 2010 23:45 |  #24

nonameowns wrote in post #10028180 (external link)
hm a pro can be limited by entry level gears
a noob can just shoot on auto on pro gears and no1 can tell the difference between

BS...


Jay
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"If you aren't getting extraordinary images from today's dSLRs, regardless of brand, it's not the camera!" - Bill Fortney, Nikon Corp.

  
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Wilt
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Apr 20, 2010 00:59 |  #25

A Stradavarius in the hands of a 10 year old or even a 30 year old amateur probably won't sound as nice as a mediocre violin in the hands of a master.

A Stradavarius in the hands of a master will sound better than an ordinary violin in the hands of a master.

The mastery is in the hands of the artist (not merely a technically savvy user)...the instrument makes it possible to create the masterpiece in the hands of the master.

Same applies for cameras and photographers.


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Josepi
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Apr 20, 2010 08:29 |  #26

Ever think that somewhere out there, there's a deeply philosophical discussion underway at a carpentry forum, were those involved are discussing the various merits of the hammer or the hand that wields it?

In any respect, it's ridiculous.




  
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Digital_zen
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Apr 20, 2010 15:21 |  #27

Mechanics do not rebuild engines with a screwdriver and a half eaten carrot.
Pro golfers do not swing a bent piece of an aluminum lawn chair.
Pro race car drivers are not going to win the Daytona 500 in a 1984 Ford Pinto (though I would love to try it), these things just are not gunna happen!
This being said I think it is important to consider a couple of old quotes, "The master calligrapher does not choose his brush." and "When the master archer misses his target he looks not to his bow or his arrows, but within himself to find the answer."


You will find no more zen at the top of a mountain, than the zen that you bring there with you.

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rpkwon
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Apr 20, 2010 16:28 |  #28

I would say it's a bit of both. Give a newbie a professional kit and they wouldn't know what to do with it. They'll just set it on auto and snap away with disregard to the settings, subject, composition, lighting...etc. Give a professional a point and shoot camera and they'll still be able to capture the moment in their own artistry.


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images ­ by ­ Paul
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Apr 20, 2010 17:22 |  #29

understanding depth of field will dictate that distance from the subject will change the perception of depth of field. ie: 100mm 20 feet from the subject @ f.4 will create a deeper depth of field than 100mm 50' from the subject @f.4.

MrWho wrote in post #10020331 (external link)
Honestly, the whole "it's the photographer, not the camera" mentality I believe is extremely flawed. Good gear does produce good photos, there's no way to get f/1.4 DOF out of a f/3.5-5.6 lens. You can't get a perfectly clean sharp ISO 6400 in marginal light from an APS-C camera. There is skill involved, but those who have the experience to make ISO 3200 look very clean on a APS-C camera have more skill than an average Joe. It's really worth investing in a nice prime or Sigma 17-70 OS HSM instead of expecting the kit lens to work miracles. People with external flash units and ringlights will do things the average user can never hope to accomplish with the on board pop up flash.

Sure this mentality is good to encourage new photographers but an unpredictable lens or a budget $50 lens will have it's issues whether it's slow AF, not very sharp, CA, vignetting or whatever it may be. A $200 P&S won't have a usable ISO 1600 if it has 16MP crammed onto it's sensor. It's hard to accurately focus manually with a 18-55 kit lens. A budget lens will never focus as fast or as quietly as an L lens.

I don't mean to offend anyone, there's just this mentality going around where it's justifying the purchase of subpar or just plain bad equipment. If someone produces a bad product or releases a horrible lens, nothing will ever get done or improved if everyone just accepts it with a "c'est la vie" mentality. Companies improve their products through feedback and criticism from it's customers. If there are equipment problems in the field, the company needs to know so they can recall the product or fix affected units while making adjustments in the manufacturing process to ensure future examples aren't released with the same faults or errors. Errors that go undetected or are allowed to pile up and pile up while going uncorrected cause a mass exodus from said company to it's competition, I've seen it happen on many occasions and it's happened to me already for the 3rd time.




  
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JWright
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Apr 20, 2010 20:19 as a reply to  @ images by Paul's post |  #30

Digital_zen wrote in post #10032235 (external link)
Mechanics do not rebuild engines with a screwdriver and a half eaten carrot.
Pro golfers do not swing a bent piece of an aluminum lawn chair.
Pro race car drivers are not going to win the Daytona 500 in a 1984 Ford Pinto (though I would love to try it), these things just are not gunna happen!
This being said I think it is important to consider a couple of old quotes, "The master calligrapher does not choose his brush." and "When the master archer misses his target he looks not to his bow or his arrows, but within himself to find the answer."

Conversely, you could hand me the finest set of Snap-On mechanics tools and I wouldn't be able to rebuild an engine. You could hand me a set of top-of-the-line golf clubs and I'd still be a duffer. Put me in a NASCAR vehicle and I'd be lucky to make through the first lap of the Daytona 500.

Hand me a Rebel DSLR or a P&S camera and I'd be able to take at least an acceptable picture with either. Why? Because I have photography experience and knowledge, but I know very little about the internal workings of an engine, I haven't played golf since I was in Junior High school and my driving experience is limited to the California freeways.


John

  
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Photographer or camera?
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