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Thread started 29 Jul 2010 (Thursday) 23:33
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7D + 100-400 + airshow = not good at all.

 
carpenter
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Jul 29, 2010 23:33 |  #1

now let me preface this by saying, I am not blaming the equipment, but I don't understand what exactly the problem is. I have shot airshows (and EAA) many many times with an XT, XTi, 40D and 50D, all with a 100-400. I have never had this type of noise before. Here are links to 2 pictures that are typical of 99% of my shots from today. There are some that are ok, but few and far between. I used all metering patterns thinking that was the issue, but didnt seem to matter. I used AV and TV modes and AI Servo. Again, I am sure that there is something that related to me shooting and not the gear I just don't understand what it is. These pics look like they were taken with a 75-300 and not a 100-400.

http://farm5.static.fl​ickr.com …42911354_9de0fd​276c_o.jpg (external link).
1/320, ISO 200, f7.1, AV mode, 250mm

http://farm5.static.fl​ickr.com …42283981_222b13​96a3_o.jpg (external link)
1/640, ISO 200, F11, TV mode, 100mm

Is the camera simply underexposing? I do not have any EC. Pics taken at ISO 100 look identical.


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Nietzsche84
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Jul 29, 2010 23:45 |  #2

Did you set the sharpness too much on the picture style?
Auto-light optimizer also introduce more noise in the image.
And I also feel that 7D tend to give slightly under-exposed images, may be due to metering system.




  
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carpenter
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Jul 30, 2010 00:01 as a reply to  @ Nietzsche84's post |  #3

picture style is standard which is 3,0,0,0. I have only shot raw with the 7d and cannot complain one bit about that. light optimizer is off.


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lensmen
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Jul 30, 2010 02:29 |  #4

Nietzsche84 wrote in post #10629027 (external link)
And I also feel that 7D tend to give slightly under-exposed images,

2 days into my 7D, I got this same feeling too.

With my previous 50D, usually I have EV -1/3 for most shots. Here I am testing it with no EV and it feels like something isn't right.


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JuSlaughter
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Jul 30, 2010 02:33 |  #5

Glad its not just me then that seems to get this problem with the 7D.

I've been very disappointed with the IQ from it, irrelevant of which lens I use.


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Jul 30, 2010 02:39 |  #6

are you referring to the noise in the sky? yes they are noisy indeed...and they were shot at iso 200 huh?

hmmmm...


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malla1962
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Jul 30, 2010 02:55 as a reply to  @ monk3y's post |  #7

Have you pulled the exposure in post? when I shoot aircraft in the sky I shoot a full stop over.


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hpulley
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Jul 30, 2010 06:36 |  #8

For birds and planes the sky can underexpose a lot and even at ISO 100 underexposure causes noise. That said, with appropriate framing (having the aircraft be a large part of the scene) or metering mode you can get away without going crazy on the EC; manual exposure often works best however on partly cloudy days it can be difficult to keep up with the clouds covering the sun.

The OP said they've done this many times with other cameras and not had the problem. Have you compared the exposures with your 7D to ones you got with your other cameras?


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Jul 30, 2010 07:31 |  #9

I shot mine at ISO 400 and 800 on a very sunny hazy day with EC+2/3. These were all with the 50-500 OS Sigma. The 7D requires a bit more aggressive settings than the xxD line, like getting faster shutter speeds than normal by sacrificing ISO, and bumping up exposure especially if there is a sky involved.

Also turn off all that other gadgetry like lighting optimization, highlight priority, etc. They don't do any favors to the ISO performance. The 7D does have lower ISO noise that is more noticeable, but I shoot a bit on the bright side and bring down the levels during post if needed. It is much better that way than to bring UP the levels during post.

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Jul 30, 2010 07:34 |  #10

malla1962 wrote in post #10629697 (external link)
Have you pulled the exposure in post? when I shoot aircraft in the sky I shoot a full stop over.

No these were straight from the camera. It's just rather shocking to me as I have shot many times with the 7D all in RAW and have been MORE than pleased with the results. This is my first time shooting Jpeg with it.


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carpenter
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Jul 30, 2010 07:41 |  #11

hpulley wrote in post #10630169 (external link)
For birds and planes the sky can underexpose a lot and even at ISO 100 underexposure causes noise. That said, with appropriate framing (having the aircraft be a large part of the scene) or metering mode you can get away without going crazy on the EC; manual exposure often works best however on partly cloudy days it can be difficult to keep up with the clouds covering the sun.

The OP said they've done this many times with other cameras and not had the problem. Have you compared the exposures with your 7D to ones you got with your other cameras?

From what I noticed right away on the 7D it was that it actually seemed to overexpose a little bit. Compared to my 1D3 and 50D. That was the first thing I noticed after buying the 7D. Not a terrible amount but probably 2/3 stop. Not in every setting though.

I am going to shoot again today in RAW and just see what it does there. I think I will bring one of the others along as well just to test it out and shoot side by side in jpeg Probably the 50D that way if I get better results it wouldn't be because it was a 1 series camera.

It does seem like a lot of sharpening and/or compression on the jpegs. I will do more testing today. If anyone has any tests specifically I could try out let me know. I should be able to check this from my phone for updates.. Heading out again. thanks for your time everyone.


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jacobsen1
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Jul 30, 2010 07:54 |  #12

did you have highlight tone priority turned on? You're at 200 so that'd be my guess.

But the short answer is the 7D DOES have noise at low ISOs that other cameras haven't shown in the past. The good news is it's not patterned and that with 18mp, when you print, you won't notice it -vs- a x0D shot of the same subject. The bad news is, they've effectively given us ~12mp performance with memory hogging 18mp files. At least that's the way I've seen it. The 7D is VERY sensitive to underexposure. Yes you might clip your highlights shooting too bright, but at least you won't have noise in the shadows. I've seen this in my landscape shots especially because I'll shoot a few shots within a 1/2 stop of each other to make sure I NAIL the exposure w/o losing anything (regardless of the camera). With most cameras, +/- 1/2 will look very very similar. With the 7D the shadows will have more noise, a lot more, in the shot that's 1/2 lower... The issue with this is it means you really have to be careful with your DR because you tend to shoot hotter, but you don't want to clip highlights either.

PRINT your shots though. Yes you see this noise at 100%. But printing this -vs- other cameras and you won't see it. Yes it sucks it's there, but ignoring that, you don't see it in prints -vs- a camera with less MP. Sure a 1Div will look better with similar MP and cleaner files, but a 40D/50D won't look better. To me, this looks very much like film grain did in scans back in the day. For better or worse.


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Jul 30, 2010 08:35 |  #13

jacobsen1 wrote in post #10630410 (external link)
did you have highlight tone priority turned on? You're at 200 so that'd be my guess.

But the short answer is the 7D DOES have noise at low ISOs that other cameras haven't shown in the past. The good news is it's not patterned and that with 18mp, when you print, you won't notice it -vs- a x0D shot of the same subject. The bad news is, they've effectively given us ~12mp performance with memory hogging 18mp files. At least that's the way I've seen it. The 7D is VERY sensitive to underexposure. Yes you might clip your highlights shooting too bright, but at least you won't have noise in the shadows. I've seen this in my landscape shots especially because I'll shoot a few shots within a 1/2 stop of each other to make sure I NAIL the exposure w/o losing anything (regardless of the camera). With most cameras, +/- 1/2 will look very very similar. With the 7D the shadows will have more noise, a lot more, in the shot that's 1/2 lower... The issue with this is it means you really have to be careful with your DR because you tend to shoot hotter, but you don't want to clip highlights either.

PRINT your shots though. Yes you see this noise at 100%. But printing this -vs- other cameras and you won't see it. Yes it sucks it's there, but ignoring that, you don't see it in prints -vs- a camera with less MP. Sure a 1Div will look better with similar MP and cleaner files, but a 40D/50D won't look better. To me, this looks very much like film grain did in scans back in the day. For better or worse.

Yup pretty much!


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Jul 30, 2010 08:41 |  #14

carpenter wrote in post #10628987 (external link)
These pics look like they were taken with a 75-300 and not a 100-400.

Just out of curiosity, what on EARTH does noise have to do with which lens was used??

Also, as Ben mentions, I think 99.9% of the people who are complaining about low ISO noise on the 7D don't understand what Canon was trying to do with this camera. YES, you'll see it if you pixel peep at 100%, and yes it's worse than the 5DmkII or 1DmkIV, which both have less pixel density and larger sensors (duh!) BUT, just make some damn prints and see if you notice it then. I'd bet money you won't. And if you do and it bothers you, guess what--there are other cameras out there!


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hpulley
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Jul 30, 2010 08:53 |  #15

Why were you shooting JPEG is my first question? Wanted a longer buffer or more shots on a card?

Are all 7Ds that bad at low ISO? I'm used to getting very clean pictures out of my 40D and 1DII at 100-200 ISO. I've thought about picking up a 7D (probably trade in the 40D and T1i since the 7D would do all they do) but I have quite a few reservations about it so as you can see I've held off...


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