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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 17 Aug 2010 (Tuesday) 15:28
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pellicle mirror?

 
jacobsen1
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Aug 17, 2010 15:28 |  #1

Sounds like sony's going for it:

http://www.petapixel.c​om …rror-dslr-on-august-24th/ (external link)

Sony May Introduce World’s First Pellicle Mirror DSLR on August 24th

A big rumor regarding Sony’s upcoming unveiling is that they’re going to be showing us the world’s first pellicle mirror system on a DSLR camera. This means instead of a traditional bulky mirror that swings out of the way — as found in current DSLRs — the Sony DSLR will have an ultra-thin and ultra-lightweight semitransparent mirror that allows photos to be shot without the mirror swinging out the way.

Here’s a photograph of the pellicle mirror found on the Canon EOS RT:

One benefit is a higher number of frames per second and a shorter shutter lag — rumored to be 10fps — since the action of swinging the lens is eliminated from the equation. Another benefit is that the camera would be able to use phase detection autofocus while recording, since light can simultaneously be bounced to the autofocus sensors. Finally, no swinging mirror equals no viewfinder blackout when shooting, less vibration, and less noise — benefits also shared by rangefinder cameras.

I didn't put this in the rumors and news section, because I'm not wanting to talk about the sony, I want to see what people here think of the idea? Would you trade 1/3 of a stop for everything else a pellicle mirror gets you? I sure would. Being able to see your subject as you shoot is awesome. Plus, imagine having your sensor be SEALED in a box so you can't get dust on it? Sure you can then get dust on the mirror, but it can't be sharp even stopped down, at least not as sharp...

Since canon's done it in SLRs before, I wonder if they'll do it with DSLRs again?


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hpulley
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Aug 17, 2010 15:34 |  #2

I guess the question is why for Canon. The 1D already gets 10fps with a moving mirror and no 1/3rd stop loss. Now if they could get 20 fps I'd ask how I get on the list...


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SeJun
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Aug 17, 2010 15:40 |  #3

does this mean these types of cameras will NOT be called dSLR?


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jacobsen1
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Aug 17, 2010 15:40 |  #4

hpulley wrote in post #10739505 (external link)
I guess the question is why for Canon. The 1D already gets 10fps with a moving mirror and no 1/3rd stop loss. Now if they could get 20 fps I'd ask how I get on the list...

that's only ONE of the benefits:
higher FPS
shorter shutter lag
phase detection AF for video (normal AF)
no viewfinder blackout when shooting
less vibration
less noise
less dust

and they could use this on cameras OTHER than the 1 series. It'd bet it's also cheaper than a mirror that can keep up with 10FPS as well. The only down side is the loss of 1/3 of a stop, but we live in the land of crop sensors with 6400 ISO and 1.3s with ISOs to the moon, wouldn't you trade 1/3 of a stop for all of that?

SeJun wrote in post #10739544 (external link)
does this mean these types of cameras will NOT be called dSLR?

D digital
S single
L lens
R Reflex

nothing in there about a mirror. ;)


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tkbslc
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Aug 17, 2010 15:43 |  #5

It would only be 1/3 a stop of exposure, right? Not DOF?


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phigment
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Aug 17, 2010 15:46 |  #6

jacobsen1 wrote in post #10739545 (external link)
D digital
S single
L lens
R Reflex

nothing in there about a mirror. ;)

I always thought the 'reflex' referred to the moving reflex mirror.... but I guess it only has to do with the light bouncing around.


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Candersson
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Aug 17, 2010 15:49 as a reply to  @ tkbslc's post |  #7

I would most definitely make that trade! :cool:
I've been wondering when this would become a reality on the EOS for a long time.


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toxic
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Aug 17, 2010 15:50 |  #8

jacobsen1 wrote in post #10739545 (external link)
D digital
S single
L lens
R Reflex

nothing in there about a mirror. ;)

"Reflex" is the mirror swinging part.

I wonder why Canon stopped doing it...there has to be a good reason, after all. Nothing since the 1N RS in 1995.

tkbslc wrote in post #10739561 (external link)
It would only be 1/3 a stop of exposure, right? Not DOF?

1/3 less exposure and light to the VF. I wouldn't want to use APS-C with a pellicle...APS-H, sure. That is, if the bother with an optical VF.




  
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DeVVitt
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Aug 17, 2010 15:51 |  #9

I think it would be amazing to get the viewfinder blackout out of the system. It's not the worst thing to have, but I wouldn't mind at all if it dissapeared.
The benefits sure look nice. I don't know if I would need any besides the liking of the non-present VF blackout. It's always nice to have I guess.



  
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AJSJones
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Aug 17, 2010 15:54 |  #10

R=reflex=mirror (reflection) (the pellicle is still a mirror. It doesn't have to move to be able to reflect ;)

The pellicle mirror will be quite delicate and will have to be a "sturdy" part of the "dust-free" enclosure for the sensor, since you won't be able to clean the sensor itself. Not a trivial engineering challenge, but I hope they succeed :D


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SeJun
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Aug 17, 2010 15:57 |  #11

toxic wrote in post #10739610 (external link)
"Reflex" is the mirror swinging part.

I wonder why Canon stopped doing it...there has to be a good reason, after all. Nothing since the 1N RS in 1995.

1/3 less exposure and light to the VF. I wouldn't want to use APS-C with a pellicle...APS-H, sure. That is, if the bother with an optical VF.


How will I know when I took a picture without the "click" of the mirror? hahah.. or actually, I wonder how many blurred images are caused by the movement of the mirror? in low light, wide open, zoomed in? is this why they are getting away from the moving mirror?


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toxic
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Aug 17, 2010 16:01 |  #12

SeJun wrote in post #10739654 (external link)
How will I know when I took a picture without the "click" of the mirror?

The mirror is a slap. The click is the shutter.

hahah.. or actually, I wonder how many blurred images are caused by the movement of the mirror? in low light, wide open, zoomed in? is this why they are getting away from the moving mirror?

Mirror slap affects exposure from around 1/30 to 2"...but everyone still uses MLU for exposure longer than 2" to make sure it isn't a factor.




  
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jacobsen1
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Aug 17, 2010 16:01 as a reply to  @ DeVVitt's post |  #13

tkbslc wrote in post #10739561 (external link)
It would only be 1/3 a stop of exposure, right? Not DOF?

correct.

phigment wrote in post #10739580 (external link)
I always thought the 'reflex' referred to the moving reflex mirror.... but I guess it only has to do with the light bouncing around.

toxic wrote in post #10739610 (external link)
"Reflex" is the mirror swinging part.

here's the definition:
Single Lens Reflex. This term designates a type of camera which incorporates a viewing system where the subject is seen through the lens. This image is reflected on a mirror and passes through a prism that restores the normal view. Interchangeable lens 35mm cameras are mostly of this type. ...

no mention about it moving, just that it's a mirror...

1/3 less exposure and light to the VF. I wouldn't want to use APS-C with a pellicle...APS-H, sure.

1/3 less to the film plane (back in the day, sensor now). Not sure how much less to the viewfinder, but it's not the same 1/3 as far as I remember. It IS dimmer though.

but seriously, 1/3 of a hit to your ISOs? That means if you like 3200 now, you'd be at 2500 noise wise or 4000 if you wanted the speeds you have now at 3200, no big difference there IMHO?


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toxic
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Aug 17, 2010 16:07 |  #14

jacobsen1 wrote in post #10739679 (external link)
but seriously, 1/3 of a hit to your ISOs? That means if you like 3200 now, you'd be at 2500 noise wise or 4000 if you wanted the speeds you have now at 3200, no big difference there IMHO?

I wouldn't want the dimmer VF on APS-C...ISOs aren't a big deal. Not that it matters since I don't even use APS-C :rolleyes:

edit: actually, there's no guarantee on the 1/3 thing. Right now there's 1/3 to the AF, 2/3 to VF, at least for Canon, and everything to the image sensor at exposure...Sony could do whatever they want - 1/3 to VF and 2/3 to sensor/exposure, or vice versa, or 50/50...

Wikipedia says the RT lost 2/3 stop.

A disadvantage of a pellicle mirror is that the light diverted to the viewfinder means less light is available to expose the film — in the case of the EOS RT, the lens effectively loses 2/3 of an f-stop. A less reflective mirror might be used, but then the viewfinder would be darker and harder to use. The advantages of a stationary mirror are less important now that modern cameras can move the mirror back and forth very quickly, reducing the shutter release lag and increasing the amount of time the viewfinder is usable.




  
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jacobsen1
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Aug 17, 2010 16:21 |  #15

toxic wrote in post #10739706 (external link)
edit: actually, there's no guarantee on the 1/3 thing. Right now there's 1/3 to the AF, 2/3 to VF, at least for Canon, and everything to the image sensor at exposure...Sony could do whatever they want - 1/3 to VF and 2/3 to sensor/exposure, or vice versa, or 50/50...

that math doesn't add up, there'd be nothing left for the image?

the mirror passes some light to the sensor/film, and reflects some up. What's reflected THEN gets split between the AF and viewfinder. I'd imagine what we're using now also splits what's getting reflected anyway, otherwise how could the camera AF while we're looking through the viewfinder? So that ratio would likely be unchanged, but the ratio of sensor -vs- reflected would need to still be set.

edit: I see what you're saying now, I think we're saying the same thing.


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