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FORUMS Marketplace & Market Info Market Watch 
Thread started 01 Feb 2011 (Tuesday) 07:17
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B&S boards gone to the dogs

 
TeamSpeed
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Feb 02, 2011 16:11 |  #46

p4olom wrote in post #11765025 (external link)
When it comes to users using their ebay as a source of feedback, ask them to PM you through their ebay account to verify that it's really theirs.

Agreed, I have it as point #3 in this Online Safety Precautions sticky.


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dgsphoto
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Feb 02, 2011 16:53 |  #47

(Comments) in line.

Not picking on you (or anyone for that matter). But I'm quoting and using your post because it best summarizes the general thoughts many posted on this thread have.

Again, no offense meant to anyone. :)

Edit: Albeit I did play with JT a bit on the agree/disagree part. All in good spirit. :)

Justin_Thyme wrote in post #11763003 (external link)
Thanks for the retail economics 101 lesson. (Hardly the intention as that would be a highly oversimplified lesson!) I agree (Good) and disagree (Maybe you could give it more time and thought? -:) ) in the realms of the used market. Regardless of supply and demand a used item is only worth what someone else is willing to pay (Exactly what I said! Problem is that some don't seem to like that someone else is willing to pay within 10% of the new price which I thought was an unfounded expectation) for it so if the demand is high but the price is too close to retail most folks would rather apply the supply and demand factor to a retail package from an authorized source, get a full warranty (not gamble on passing the remainder of an existing one on) , a no hassle avenue of return if necessary and not have to worry about the ethics of a seller and take an unnecessary risk (Don't be so quick to assume that. Even a 5% savings on a $2000 lens adds up to $100 (and I could have taken a 10% savings example but wanted to be conservative!). Given the history behind and condition of the item, credibility of the seller, etc.; some would value that $100 savings more than the warranty (which by the way the buyer may not even lose....)) . Pretty much a no brainer IMO to pay 5% or so more with no risk involved. (To some maybe, and I am happy for those that can say/do that! Others are more hardpressed financially and the 5% savings could be a big deal to them. Been there.) Im not looking to score an item for half price although I welcome it if it does come along but try and stay in the 80-85% range on both sales and purchases for current models. (That's perfectly fine. It's your prerogative how much you want to pay. But problem is some people with like thoughts go one step further and expect two extremes - either everything aligns to their expectations OR the board policies and practices have to change! )

A bit difficult to swallow the OBO scenario and policies in place in the same post. A bit contradictory as policies forbid auctions here. (It would be against the policies to either not list an asking price and just open it up as auction OR have a concrete buy offer at the asking price to be put on hold/stalled to solicit further interest at a higher price. But I don't see anything wrong in the buyer listing his sale as asking price/OBO, goes of to do his things, checks in a while later to find 5 offers in the PM and picks the highest one regardless of the order of PMs. To me, that is perfectly acceptable and so is buyer chosing to prefer a local party and/or a buyer with higher perceived credibility over a lesser one.) The original post actually stood behind the policies here and mostly was addressing those failing to follow them as noted in example #1. Those same policies are what brings folks here instead of fleabay where you end up half the time in a bidding war with the seller who is logged in under an alias. The last item I bidded on there was exactly that. I was constatnly outbid by the same user and cut it off when it got past what I would pay (And that's what every buyer should do regardless of whether it is on an auction or an outright purchase.) . Within 2 minutes of the auction ending I get message from the seller that I could have it for my last bid. My response was I would pay the price it was at before it got driven up in the last few minutes. The seller started with that buyer back out (within 60 seconds?) then several story changes later it changed to Well I had more than one for sale and wanted to avoid auction fees. The story changes came with no input from me as my last response was that Id pay what it was at before it got driven up.

Example #2 is known as a "fire sale" and does happen from time to time when folks are desparate and need the $$ fast. Thats still not going to drive down the cost on the others as most will wait patiently unless they become desparate as well. (The problem with the desperate sales is that buyers are far too quick to refer to them as pricing guideline. Well, the local pawn shop might end up selling a 200/1.8 to $800...does not mean that that price becomes the reference. Also, one just has to look at your argument here closely and will find that that is exactly what I stated...demand and supply will drive the price. So given the low demand and a large supply one or the other seller is bound to lower the price if s/he can't wait it out for an extended period. If this happens multiple times, then one can safely say that the used price has adjusted downwards due to the large supply and less demand at that price)

Its human nature to want to buy for as low as you can get and sell for as much as you can get. (Agreed. Only that one should not expect to world to change if one cannot buy that low and has to fork out more.) There is a difference between human nature and reality. The OP in condensed version was mostly addressing those failing to follow policies, the secondary was more or less wondering why some folks expect to get retail or near retail pricing on used gear (because there are buyers willing to pay that price. If not, the seller would come to realization eventually that the price expectation was't correct and would eventually adjust the price accordingly) ( save the rare items that cant be bought retail ) for which I have seen several differnt perspectives but none of them make sense to me (Your prerogative!) as I already noted If its that close to retail Id just as soon buy retail with a full warranty, no risk and a hassle free avenue of exhange/ return. (Some would. Others maybe not!) Im not talking about a set % point as when the $$ is higher 5-10% can be a big difference of several hundred $$. But a $500 item listed at $475 plus shipping and paypal fees is pretty much a guarantee that Im going to keep looking or buy retail. (And I wouldn't be surprised if a $500 item is listed with a premium for $600 on the used market if it is currently out of stock everywhere. Also, just apply your "rare items" comment here and it would make sense pretty quickly. For Ex. Nikon D7000 bodies have sold for a premium over their MSRP on craigslist. I have seen some go for the same as retail as well.)




  
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tkbslc
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Feb 02, 2011 17:40 |  #48

My eyes can't read orange text on light backgrounds, sorry.


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dgsphoto
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Feb 02, 2011 18:04 |  #49

I will change it...sorry....give me a min

EDIT: Changed the inline comments color on the previous post.




  
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gisk
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Feb 02, 2011 19:01 |  #50

barkingspud wrote in post #11755440 (external link)
Agreed. I don't deal with people like that. When I sell an item, I take seller fees into account and include it in the price. Why should I (the buyer) be responsible for paying for seller fees? It's not my problem. Anyway, that's just me, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would disagree and/or just deal with the additional fees.

Playing devil's advocate for a second:

It depends on why the parties are using PP in the first place. Usually, as the buyer, I want my equipment to arrive as soon as possible, but no seller ever ships without receiving payment. So if I want my stuff faster, PP is the best route to go. As such, since I (the buyer) want to pay quickly so the seller can ship quickly, I think I should be paying the PP fees.

For me personally, as a seller, I don't care if you pay me with money order, cashier's check, or PP, as long as I get my money. Now if the buyer decides s/he wants to use PP so I can ship out the same day, why should I have to pay that fee because you don't want to wait for your check to make it to me?

Of course I agree that if the seller is only accepting PP as the sole method of payment, then yes, the seller should eat the fees. If, however, the seller accepts multiple methods, I think the fees should fall on the buyer should they choose to use PP over other (slower) methods.


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dog ­ rocket
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Feb 02, 2011 19:05 |  #51

Hey JT, I'll pay shipping *and* Paypal fees if you'll lock this thread. lol.


Randy...

  
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dog ­ rocket
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Feb 02, 2011 19:18 |  #52

Seriously, y'all want something or somebody to blame, blame the internet. There was a day when you had to hoof it to buy what you wanted and negotiating was done face to face. Now everyone with fat wallets sits on their a$$e$ and pays more than they should so they don't have to roll a buttcheek off the lazyboy unless some air wants to escape.

I laugh like crazy when I see what used gear goes for, especially on eBay. used L-Plates from RRS auctioning up to $170? If you are into old cars and motorcycles, parts that were a song at swap meets are now priced against the lazyboy fatwallet fatmen shopping eBay. Used stuff is way overpriced now because you are pitting against lots of folks with way more money than brains. The internet is a godsend for sellers and a curse for treasure hunters...

Ah, and if you wanted to sell photo gear in the old days, you either got paid the going rate at a camera store (talk about lowballing!) or took out a 3 line classifieds in the paper for $40 that expired in 5 days.

So, puhlease, don't complain as a seller because there's folks out there looking for a deal... they are expecting to be brushed off 99% of the time and hoping to hit gold 1% of the time. Pat them on the back and send them on their way... no harm, no foul. You kids under 30 have it good. I used to walk 10 miles in the snow barefoot to sell a lens...


Randy...

  
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Feb 02, 2011 19:46 |  #53

Ebay prices are insane due largely to the fact that between ebay and paypal fees these days, you are almost paying them 10%. Add insured shipping costs, and the out of pocket expenses are insane.


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mpix345
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Feb 02, 2011 23:30 |  #54

gisk wrote in post #11765936 (external link)
Playing devil's advocate for a second:

It depends on why the parties are using PP in the first place. Usually, as the buyer, I want my equipment to arrive as soon as possible, but no seller ever ships without receiving payment. So if I want my stuff faster, PP is the best route to go. As such, since I (the buyer) want to pay quickly so the seller can ship quickly, I think I should be paying the PP fees.

For me personally, as a seller, I don't care if you pay me with money order, cashier's check, or PP, as long as I get my money. Now if the buyer decides s/he wants to use PP so I can ship out the same day, why should I have to pay that fee because you don't want to wait for your check to make it to me?

Of course I agree that if the seller is only accepting PP as the sole method of payment, then yes, the seller should eat the fees. If, however, the seller accepts multiple methods, I think the fees should fall on the buyer should they choose to use PP over other (slower) methods.

As a seller I definitely prefer PayPal, otherwise I could be waiting days expecting a money order to show up only to find that the buyer flaked. That happens all to often, but setting a deadline for PayPal payment smokes them out pretty quickly.

As a buyer I prefer it because it gives me some leverage (or at least the hint of leverage) should the buyer not hold up his end of the deal. I've read the horror stories, but I still take some solace in this.

Beyond that, why does anyone care who pays what fees? You want to sell for X; I want to buy for Z. I don't care how the numbers are built; only what they are. I am really irked by the "$500 net to me" ads. Not because a few bucks more or less really matters that much, but because the seller can't take the effort to figure out a total asking price. If you are that self-centered about what you are selling I will take a pass. You probably will not be too concerned about my needs in the transaction.


  
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Feb 03, 2011 09:28 |  #55

So it looks like if I am a buyer I decide all the numbers and rules!


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Feb 03, 2011 23:03 |  #56

I wish we had a negative feedback area or theft area to report issues with scammers. I warded off an attempted scam by simply doing some research but there are a lot of users that are not well versed in doing any type of "checking" before shipping off their hard earned gear.


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Feb 04, 2011 04:22 |  #57

NGC2141 wrote in post #11773615 (external link)
I wish we had a negative feedback area or theft area to report issues with scammers. I warded off an attempted scam by simply doing some research but there are a lot of users that are not well versed in doing any type of "checking" before shipping off their hard earned gear.

Give a man a fish, he will eat for day, teach him to fish, he can eat the rest of his life.

Ie. People need to learn to be more discerning, and we have resources that will help them learn how. If they worked hard for that money, they should work almost as hard to spend it. :)

I also think some people dont want to put a lot of effort in their purchases especially if a deal is to be made. Otherwise we wouldnt have suckers falling for the emails of "we found a large sum of money and need your help" or "i have a 5d2 for $800" on cl, etc. :(


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mpix345
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Feb 04, 2011 06:55 |  #58

TeamSpeed wrote in post #11774446 (external link)
Give a man a fish, he will eat for day, teach him to fish, he can eat the rest of his life.

Ie. People need to learn to be more discerning, and we have resources that will help them learn how. If they worked hard for that money, they should work almost as hard to spend it. :)

I also think some people dont want to put a lot of effort in their purchases especially if a deal is to be made. Otherwise we wouldnt have suckers falling for the emails of "we found a large sum of money and need your help" or "i have a 5d2 for $800" on cl, etc. :(

While I don't disagree, there is also no good reason, imo, why we can't have a negative feedback function. The tools appear to be out there.


  
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Feb 04, 2011 07:05 |  #59

mpix345 wrote in post #11774777 (external link)
While I don't disagree, there is also no good reason, imo, why we can't have a negative feedback function. The tools appear to be out there.

If you read the other similar posts, the ownership of this board has allocated resources in the future to supply some sort of feedback mechanism. The timeline and details just hasn't been put forth yet.


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Feb 04, 2011 07:31 |  #60

dgsphoto wrote in post #11765628 (external link)
I will change it...sorry....give me a min

EDIT: Changed the inline comments color on the previous post.

Still not that easy to read. I'm not sure why you went to the trouble of picking a different color over just bolding it.

I get a bit annoyed at the people that delete the price after an item has sold. The non-locked threads are a minor annoyance. Costs an extra click or two, and maybe some extra reading, but it's not that big a deal. To use an old saying, Lighten up Francis!

I'd say the thing that annoys me most about what goes on here in the B&S forums is the ubiquitous "$xxx w/ paypal gift or + 3%". I saw one ad just yesterday, that was "$10 w/ paypal gift, or + 3% w/ regular paypal". Really? Another $0.30?

I'm with many of the others here, it's just like selling things has been for years. Figure out what you need to get for something, figure that people are going to try and negotiate, and set your asking price accordingly. I like to get good deals just like the next guy, but some of this stuff just makes people look silly (see above example).

What I'm somewhat surprised at, is that the whole paypal gift thing has gotten as prevalent as it has. The hidden statement in every For Sale post that asks for paypal gift is that the buyer wants the seller to give up any recourse w/ paypal, in the event of a dispute.

As far as fleabay goes, I avoid that place like the plague. I can count on one hand the things I've bought off fleabay. And that spans a 10+ year period.

To the OP, why do you care what people list stuff for? If it's something that you're interseted in, and the price is close to what you're willing to pay, make an offer. If not, don't. Pretty simple, really. I just recently bought an 85 f/1.8. I had a price in mind that I wanted to pay. If I saw one that was close to what I wanted to pay, I'd make an offer, for ones that weren't, I moved on to the next add. Finally saw one that just happened to be at my price point, and I bought it. It didn't bother me that some people wanted more than I was willing to pay.

JT wrote:
I think its better than posting one hard price offering substandard shipping methods and payment by MO only with shipping to occur by slowboat only after the MO arrrives and is cashed. Why should the seller take a $60 hit on PP fees for a $2K item if there is another who doesnt want to use paypal and is not making an impulse buy and paying by a no fee method? If the item is listed with all fees inclusive the item normally will be priced over others and then you get your time wasted with PMs lowballing or you just wont be able to sell. Is it a violation of paypal TOS...well yes but its also a vioaltion with credit card companies but I drive by gas stations everyday with 2 different prices, credit is 10 cents more per gallon than cash. There are a lot of undesirable things lisetd in PP TOS. Like freezing your account if they feel like it without having to give you a reason and holding your funds for 180 days.

Could you please explain this a bit? How is the seller 'taking a hit'? As the seller, you have the right to negotiate your net price. I'm curious as to what you consider 'substandard shipping methods'. The shipping terms would also be something that would be covered in the negotiation process. I know that I cover the shipping terms before any payment is sent. If someone says they will use a shipping method that you don't prefer, negotiate for something different.

And I'm not sure what your talking about w/ the gas stations and how it's a violation w/ the credit card companies. I live in NJ as well, and I don't like the whole 'cash discount' thing that has popped up over the last couple of years, but, I do understand it. Businesses pay a percentage to the credit card companies to process the transaction. Offering a discount for cash is perfectly legal. Is it really charging a premium for using a credit card? Sure it is, but by calling it a cash discount, it's legal.

I've read several of your posts recently, and it really appears that you have a chip on your shoulder. Just recently there was a for sale thread where you were clearly trying to call someone out on something. You also rant about others not following the rules, but don't hold yourself to the same standard. See this thread for an example. And while we know it's against the rules, and some of us find it annoying that people remove the selling price after an item is sold, it's not your (or anyone else's but the mods/admins) job to 'yell' at people about it, like you did in this thread.

You must be wound pretty tight if simple stuff like this is bothering you this much. Maybe you need to take a break and do something different, like maybe getting out and taking some pictures? Or maybe it's just the weather. I know I'm fed up w/ all the snow here in NJ, although it's going to allow me to buy some extra gear!!! :D

Seriously, relax a bit.


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