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Thread started 16 Mar 2011 (Wednesday) 10:27
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Petrol (Gas) generator

 
charlieharper
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Mar 16, 2011 10:27 |  #1

The VB-Lithiums are not available, and if they were they're $AU 399.00 each.

The Explorer is $AU 500.00.

I've Googled everywhere, searched POTN, been redirected to SS and am still none-the-wiser about petrol (gas) generators.

"Everyone" says the Honda 1000's are the way to go, about $AU 1,000 here.

What does the collective wisdom think of this option for two RX600's, seems like a Honda clone .............

Thanks,

Austen.

800W continuous power, 930W peak power

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Mar 16, 2011 10:36 |  #2

I dont know about the RX600's but other studio strobes like the AB's require pure sine wave power. Some inverters and also some generators create a modified sine wave power which can cause problems. Just to be safe you should find out whether your flash needs the pure or true sine wave power and whether that generator indeed delivers it.




  
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charlieharper
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Mar 16, 2011 10:46 |  #3

I'm advised that the Elinchrom RX600's (being digital) need a pure sine wave.

All petrol (gas) generators (by definition) produce a pure sine wave, albeit with varying amounts of "noise".

This particular generator (and the Honda ones) turn that AC into DC, put it through a "Pure Sine Wave" inverter, and send it back out as AC.

The idea of this is that (hopefully) the inverter will produce a more constant voltage and cleaner feed then the generators AC alternator.

Cheers,

Austen.



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ZXDrew
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Mar 16, 2011 13:02 |  #4

I own the Honda 1000i and love it. I've found not all gas generators produce a clean sine wave. The honda runs a pair of b800s with no problem. I've used the 2000i and like it a little more but due to the weight its not practical to take places. One nice thing the honda features is a fuel cap that actually has a seal lock. It basially keeps the gas smell from seaping out. I store the generator in our mud room with no problem.


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Mar 16, 2011 17:15 |  #5

I just tried out Yamaha EF2000is last night. I was able to run 3 Travelite 750s no problem. The high end inverter generator produces very clean power to sensitive devices.


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Mar 17, 2011 05:11 |  #6

Why are they so "sensitive"?


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Mar 17, 2011 06:37 |  #7

charlieharper wrote in post #12031122 (external link)
All petrol (gas) generators (by definition) produce a pure sine wave, albeit with varying amounts of "noise".

This statement is not quite correct.

AC generators with a simple alternator driven by an engine and no electronic control circuitry will meet the statement above. However, larger portable generators and most standby generators have electronic voltage and (sometimes) frequency controls which tend to distort the sine wave of the delivered power. This is far from "noise".

DigitalDabbler wrote in post #12036537 (external link)
Why are they so "sensitive"?

The electronics circuits in some devices can have (typically transformer-less) DC power supplies that require the incoming power to be a very clean sine wave. Operating these devices on a "trashy" power from a typical construction-grade generator could damage the devices.


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charlieharper
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Mar 17, 2011 06:45 |  #8

DigitalDabbler wrote in post #12036537 (external link)
Why are they so "sensitive"?

Dunno...but "Everyone" says that for electronic (digitally controlled) gear you should use pure-sine-wave electrickery, whereas for analogue stuff like bar heaters and incandescent light-globes it doesn't really matter.

PCB was talking about a not-unrelated topic, and he said that for strobes their high initial recharging current is past the maximum capacity of most cheaper (but still sine-wave) inverters, and when the current draw is too high they shut-down, whereas his inverters are current-limited, so as the current draw goes up, so then the voltage drops to compensate as the strobes capacitors suck the initial recharge.

He said that the (115v) output) can drop to as low as 35v during the initial surge, and his (digital) Einsteins were designed to accept this whereas many other digital strobes would "crash" if their input voltage fell from 115v to 35v.

Dunno if this helps, or is even relevant :D !!!

Austen.



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Mar 17, 2011 06:51 |  #9

kumar14344 reported.

Austen.



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Mar 17, 2011 06:52 |  #10

charlieharper wrote in post #12036751 (external link)
Dunno...but "Everyone" says that for electronic (digitally controlled) gear you should use pure-sine-wave electrickery, whereas for analogue stuff like bar heaters and incandescent light-globes it doesn't really matter.

As I mentioned above, the design of the electronic circuitry (whether it's digital or analog actually makes little difference) is what really dictates what the AC power requirements are.

charlieharper wrote in post #12036751 (external link)
PCB was talking about a not-unrelated topic, and he said that for strobes their high initial recharging current is past the maximum capacity of most cheaper (but still sine-wave) inverters, and when the current draw is too high they shut-down, whereas his inverters are current-limited, so as the current draw goes up, so then the voltage drops to compensate as the strobes capacitors suck the initial recharge.

He said that the (115v) output) can drop to as low as 35v during the initial surge, and his (digital) Einsteins were designed to accept this whereas many other digital strobes would "crash" if their input voltage fell from 115v to 35v.

This is another type of AC power requirement, but it is as important as what I was referring to above.

Flash units draw a very high current for a short time. While the average power consumption may be well within the specs of a given generator, the peak power consumption by things like studio flash units may not be.


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Mar 17, 2011 06:58 |  #11

SkipD wrote in post #12036730 (external link)
This statement is not quite correct.

AC generators with a simple alternator driven by an engine and no electronic control circuitry will meet the statement above. However, larger portable generators and most standby generators have electronic voltage and (sometimes) frequency controls which tend to distort the sine wave of the delivered power. This is far from "noise"......

Ummm....Yeah, OK, I'll pay that :D !!

I was just thinking of the actual output of the alternator itself, not too many people realise that you do in fact get a pure sine wave from an alternator.

But yes, what happens to it after that is beyond the physics of a magnetic field, a piece of wire and relative motion between them !!

Austen.



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DigitalDabbler
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Mar 18, 2011 03:19 as a reply to  @ charlieharper's post |  #12

charlieharper wrote in post #12036751 (external link)
Dunno...but "Everyone" says that for electronic (digitally controlled) gear you should use pure-sine-wave electrickery, whereas for analogue stuff like bar heaters and incandescent light-globes it doesn't really matter.

PCB was talking about a not-unrelated topic, and he said that for strobes their high initial recharging current is past the maximum capacity of most cheaper (but still sine-wave) inverters, and when the current draw is too high they shut-down, whereas his inverters are current-limited, so as the current draw goes up, so then the voltage drops to compensate as the strobes capacitors suck the initial recharge.

He said that the (115v) output) can drop to as low as 35v during the initial surge, and his (digital) Einsteins were designed to accept this whereas many other digital strobes would "crash" if their input voltage fell from 115v to 35v.

Dunno if this helps, or is even relevant :D !!!

Austen.

Both! It helps clarify the situation. See below,

SkipD wrote in post #12036774 (external link)
As I mentioned above, the design of the electronic circuitry (whether it's digital or analog actually makes little difference) is what really dictates what the AC power requirements are.


This is another type of AC power requirement, but it is as important as what I was referring to above.

Flash units draw a very high current for a short time. While the average power consumption may be well within the specs of a given generator, the peak power consumption by things like studio flash units may not be.

Okay, the problem is surge - more commonly known as - Inrush Current.

Inrush current is the instantaneous current drown by a capacitor on being connected to the supply. Bear with me, I'll try to make this as clear as possible.

When you connect a flat capacitor to a supply, it, for an instant, appears as a a short-circuit across that supply. As the voltage across that capacitor increases the load current decreases logarithmically with time. You know the sound your flash makes as it recharges between flashes? that's the switchmode charger in action. The lower the pitch, the harder that it is working.

Now for a say, 350w flashgun, this instantaneous load could be equivalent to somewhere between 3500-7000 watts. This is the inrush current I mentioned.

The second aspect is voltage. Our (aussie) power supply is 240 volts RMS. RMS means Root Mean Squared. For now I'll leave you to google it, but accept that this means that 240 volts RMS equals 375 volts peak to peak (for our US friends, this mean 110 and 170 volts, roughly)

375 freakin' VOLTS I hear you ask? That's fine, the capacitors are specced to handle peak voltages. Due to the averaging effect of these capacitors, you get 240 volts (give or take) DC for the flash tube.

I'm going to ignore the pure vs stepped sine wave arguments for now and hope next to explain why.

Choppers, that is inverters, provide power by rapidly switching high-power transistors on and off to produce a desired waveform (pure, square, modified-stepped, whatever) and this is the problem. This produces switching noise which may be transmitted to your flash. A properly designed flash should have no problem with this as it filters the mains supply to remove such annoyances.

But this filtering is limited. When connected to the mains, the inertia of the power grid means that such spikes should be few and minor. On the occasion that something serious makes its way through you won't be the only one in your neighbourhood screaming at the moon.

Inverter-based generators could given the right circumstances create exactly these conditions. Pure sine units are still modified-step but with better filtering. The possibility exists, unless you purchaes something with 5 to 10 times your requirements (inertia, remember?)

If you want a smooth sine-wave unit, I'd advocate a good old-fashioned 240/110v alternator. No switching spikes, On high-current load, its output voltage will sag, meaning that your cycle times on high power shots may be slightly longer, but your flash won't mind. Yeah, push-rod technology it might be, but when you put (as I have) 360 300w choppers on the back of a 135 kva genset, and nothing breaks, I like it that way (BTW said genset had a nasty habit of going over-voltage on high load (crap regulator) but apart from flickering flouros, no major drama.

Sorry for the long-winded reply.

Open for Q&A,

C:\>


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charlieharper
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Mar 18, 2011 06:49 |  #13

DigitalDabbler wrote in post #12042466 (external link)
If you want a smooth sine-wave unit, I'd advocate a good old-fashioned 240/110v alternator. No switching spikes, On high-current load, its output voltage will sag, meaning that your cycle times on high power shots may be slightly longer, but your flash won't mind. Yeah, push-rod technology it might be..........

Hmmm........

There's nothing I didn't really already know there, but I'll be stuffed if I've ever put it all together before !!!

So, the regular old, elcheapo generator could actually be better for your strobes then the you-beaut inverter ones .....

Never thought of that before ...............

Of course you're right, their output is going to be (as I said before, by definition) a pure sine wave, so you're only looking at the voltage regulation part of the circuit, and as long as that manages to keep the voltage somewhere within +- 10% of nominal you'd think that the strobes would be reasonably happy............

Does the typical "construction workers generator" have any form of (regulated) current-limiting, or once you exceed the capability of the voltage regulator to keep the magnetic field up in the rotor does the voltage just naturally droop away gracefully ??

What about permanent-magnet gensets ? I understand (but don't totally know) that they aren't actually "voltage-regulated" at all, rather the permanent magnet in the rotor will eventually run out of sufficient "magnetism" and thus the voltage will droop as I asked above ??

So if that is the case, a permanent-magnet genset may be the ultimate on-location power-supply for your strobes ??

More food for thought !!!

Cheers,

Austen.



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SkipD
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Mar 18, 2011 08:14 |  #14

charlieharper wrote in post #12042841 (external link)
Hmmm........

There's nothing I didn't really already know there, but I'll be stuffed if I've ever put it all together before !!!

So, the regular old, elcheapo generator could actually be better for your strobes then the you-beaut inverter ones .....

Never thought of that before ...............

Of course you're right, their output is going to be (as I said before, by definition) a pure sine wave, so you're only looking at the voltage regulation part of the circuit, and as long as that manages to keep the voltage somewhere within +- 10% of nominal you'd think that the strobes would be reasonably happy............

Does the typical "construction workers generator" have any form of (regulated) current-limiting, or once you exceed the capability of the voltage regulator to keep the magnetic field up in the rotor does the voltage just naturally droop away gracefully ??

What about permanent-magnet gensets ? I understand (but don't totally know) that they aren't actually "voltage-regulated" at all, rather the permanent magnet in the rotor will eventually run out of sufficient "magnetism" and thus the voltage will droop as I asked above ??

So if that is the case, a permanent-magnet genset may be the ultimate on-location power-supply for your strobes ??

Problem number one is FINDING a suitably sized generator that does not have voltage regulation circuitry in it (a simple alternator only). Almost all of the generators I see on the market these days have voltage regulation of some sort in them.

Problem number two is finding a way to actually test any given generator model with things like flash units to see how they perform. If you buy a generator, typically you have a tough time returning it for a refund (at least around here) if it's been fueled and run and it still operates well within the manufacturer's specification for more ordinary loads.


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charlieharper
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Mar 18, 2011 08:39 |  #15

SkipD wrote in post #12043137 (external link)
Problem number one is FINDING.......

Problem number two is finding a way to actually test....

Yep !! No arguments from me on either of those two comments !!

I guess this takes me right back to my first post :lol: :lol: :lol: !!!

If I go back to Plan A, using a (way oversized) Pure Sine Wave inverter and battery combo, how would that go if I connected it to one of the really high-quality (or are they just high-priced??? Hmmm....) "filter" power-boards and plugged the strobes into that ??

Cheers,

Austen.



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