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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 06 May 2011 (Friday) 21:48
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Feeling the age of the 5D original...want to buy new lower end cam.

 
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May 09, 2011 03:31 |  #46

Comparing like-for-like - ie two cameras from a similar era - I know which body I'd grab for portraiture with the choice a 20D or 5D. Don't know if that holds good for the modern equivalents, but I"d suspect it would.


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melcat
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May 09, 2011 03:45 |  #47

The 5D also tends to overexpose very red subjects. I've only been bitten by it with reds that are outside sRGB (succulent flowers). The T2i has a more recent meter design which is supposed to correct this. Yet another reason to stick to incident metering for fashion.

And your (the OP's) pictures don't suck. If the problem is one of technique, that is less important than "the eye", and it's perfectly reasonable to address it with newer equipment.




  
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smorter
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May 09, 2011 05:45 |  #48

melcat wrote in post #12374472 (external link)
The 5D also tends to overexpose very red subjects. I've only been bitten by it with reds that are outside sRGB (succulent flowers). The T2i has a more recent meter design which is supposed to correct this. Yet another reason to stick to incident metering for fashion.

And your (the OP's) pictures don't suck. If the problem is one of technique, that is less important than "the eye", and it's perfectly reasonable to address it with newer equipment.

I think every Canon camera does this unfortunately - not just red but also pink and blue. Actually not just red pink and blue but any flower with intense colours. I'm not too sure why but I suspect because the camera's dynamic range can't handle the spectrum that these flowers show especially with the (relatively darker and lower tonal range backgrounds)

Generally if you analyse the shot in a raw converter you'll see it's one channel that's blown. To correct you can do a double exposure or fiddle or desaturate/decontrast it and reduce exposure of course


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melcat
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May 10, 2011 02:34 |  #49

smorter wrote in post #12374694 (external link)
I think every Canon camera does this unfortunately - not just red but also pink and blue. Actually not just red pink and blue but any flower with intense colours. I'm not too sure why but I suspect because the camera's dynamic range can't handle the spectrum that these flowers show especially with the (relatively darker and lower tonal range backgrounds)

I haven't seen any of that. My problem was definitely the meter rather than the sensor - easily fixed, because I just walked back out the door and took the shot again, this time substitute metering.

As I said, I think the OP's problem is probably the result of trying to do too much exposure and curves correction in post.




  
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MichSt
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May 10, 2011 07:37 |  #50

golden1245 wrote in post #12362440 (external link)
Every once in a while I feel the urge to upgrade my 5D classic. I don't know if it's just me, but I feel like even the sensors in the lower grade cameras such as the 60D/7D capture photos colors and tonality more realistically/neutrall​y and don't blow out highlights as much as the 5D. All my photographer friends are using 7D's and T2i's. Even my friend's 50D SEEMS to capture colors more realistically. Another thing I like about all the new EOS cameras are the 3in screens that are so much brighter then the 5D.

The photos that come out of my 5D classic are more artificial looking compared to the newer cameras and require a lot of photoshopping in order to look realistic. All the photos taken on my website were shot with the 5D mk1 and I would hate to part with it and end up with a camera with a higher pixel count/lower quality. I tempted to rent the new bodies and experiment but that would be too cost prohibitive =X What do yalls think? Am I crazy??

I know it's not the camera, but the photographer that makes the photo, but i dunno, sometimes it's nice to use newer equipment. Let me know! =)

www.audreyyung.com (external link)

If you are serious about this upgrade, I suggest you rent one of the newer cameras you're considering. Process some files on your computer, see how they actually stack up and make your decision from there. And of course...let us know how it goes :D


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kitacanon
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May 10, 2011 08:31 |  #51

I've had several Canon bodies (D30, XT, 10D, 30D and 40D) and find that there is a small difference in their saturation levels and tonal quality, and all their RAW images could be improved by reducing the appropiate RGB channel saturation in DPP (and then decreasing the brighness of that channel, as reducing saturation brightens that color...that is key)...

I'm sure this is not new to OP but to others...Here's an example


I recall someone else posting a photo with the same issue...of the need to reduce saturation and subsequent darkening of the red channel...here the original and the revised...

IMAGE: http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/9477/redwd.jpg


Also...use of DPP picture styles greatly affects color texture
IMAGE NOT FOUND
IMAGE IS A REDIRECT OR MISSING!
HTTP response: NOT FOUND | MIME changed to 'image/png'

My Canon kit 450D/s90; Canon lenses 18-55 IS, 70-210/3.5-4.5....Nikon kit: D610; 28-105/3.5-4.5, 75-300/4.5-5.6 AF, 50/1.8D Nikkors, Tamron 80-210; MF Nikkors: 50/2K, 50/1.4 AI-S, 50/1.8 SeriesE, 60/2.8 Micro Nikkor (AF locked), 85mm/1.8K-AI, 105/2.5 AIS/P.C, 135/2.8K/Q.C, 180/2.8 ED, 200/4Q/AIS, 300/4.5H-AI, ++ Tamron 70-210/3.8-4, Vivitar/Kiron 28/2, ser.1 70-210/3.5, ser.1 28-90; Vivitar/Komine and Samyang 28/2.8; 35mm Nikon F/FM/FE2, Rebel 2K...HTC RE UWA camera

  
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kitacanon
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May 10, 2011 08:35 |  #52

ps...I can't wait to pick up a 5D someday...someday...


My Canon kit 450D/s90; Canon lenses 18-55 IS, 70-210/3.5-4.5....Nikon kit: D610; 28-105/3.5-4.5, 75-300/4.5-5.6 AF, 50/1.8D Nikkors, Tamron 80-210; MF Nikkors: 50/2K, 50/1.4 AI-S, 50/1.8 SeriesE, 60/2.8 Micro Nikkor (AF locked), 85mm/1.8K-AI, 105/2.5 AIS/P.C, 135/2.8K/Q.C, 180/2.8 ED, 200/4Q/AIS, 300/4.5H-AI, ++ Tamron 70-210/3.8-4, Vivitar/Kiron 28/2, ser.1 70-210/3.5, ser.1 28-90; Vivitar/Komine and Samyang 28/2.8; 35mm Nikon F/FM/FE2, Rebel 2K...HTC RE UWA camera

  
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ChuckingFluff
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May 10, 2011 09:58 |  #53

Art Vandelay wrote in post #12367170 (external link)
TWOLITREmedia wrote:
If I could have the AF, LCD screen, and FPS rate of my 7D instilled into my 5Dc I would never look back.


They have. It's a 1D4 :)
[...]

Sorry but the 1Dmkiv is still a 1.3X crop and not a FF.:rolleyes:




  
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nosser
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May 10, 2011 10:08 as a reply to  @ ChuckingFluff's post |  #54

I know everyone else's opinion probably holds more value than mine since I'm fairly amatuer but I have been looking to get a 5dc to replace my 50d!

I'm down for a trade plus some cash if you like...


Bryan Rica
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icebat
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May 10, 2011 10:21 |  #55

golden1245 wrote in post #12362440 (external link)
Every once in a while I feel the urge to upgrade my 5D classic. I don't know if it's just me, but I feel like even the sensors in the lower grade cameras such as the 60D/7D capture photos colors and tonality more realistically/neutrall​y and don't blow out highlights as much as the 5D. All my photographer friends are using 7D's and T2i's. Even my friend's 50D SEEMS to capture colors more realistically. Another thing I like about all the new EOS cameras are the 3in screens that are so much brighter then the 5D.

The photos that come out of my 5D classic are more artificial looking compared to the newer cameras and require a lot of photoshopping in order to look realistic. All the photos taken on my website were shot with the 5D mk1 and I would hate to part with it and end up with a camera with a higher pixel count/lower quality. I tempted to rent the new bodies and experiment but that would be too cost prohibitive =X What do yalls think? Am I crazy?? I know it's not the camera, but the photographer that makes the photo, but i dunno, sometimes it's nice to use newer equipment. Let me know! =)

www.audreyyung.com

Yes.


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picturecrazy
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May 10, 2011 10:24 |  #56

Watch out... you've awakened the 5D fanboi monsters!!! ;)

I actually shot a 5D and 40D side by side for a while. I eventually sold the 5D and it funded a second 40D for me. I too saw some of the same issues you were seeing. The FIRST thing I noticed in the 40D raw files was the smoother tonal gradations. I was later told this was due to the 14 bit files. The second thing I noticed was the reds weren't as hot as the 5D reds (still a bit on the hot side though). There are reds splattered throughout skin tones, and I actually DID have a harder time getting neutral, natural skin tones on my 5D compared to my 40D. It wasn't as obvious on screen until I got a wide gamut aRGB professional imaging monitor and WOW! I was blown away at how much extra reds the 5D was putting out. Reds that most people cannot see on their consumer grade monitors. It also made BW conversions more difficult as the reds were splattering and overpowering the orange shades causing a rougher, more speckled appearance (like razor burn, if you're not careful). You can compensate for it (in Lightroom with all the cool colour sliders) but it did take a little more work.

But the modern king of all of them is the 1Ds mark III. It has the best colour rendition I've seen if you like natural, pure, realistic neutral colours. If you like to add toning layers, cross process, partially desturate, or add effects, then the 5D was pretty killer. But I wanted the FULLY neutral, natural look, and the 1Ds mark III does that well. There was only one camera I've used that does a better job, and that is the old 10D. I've never used anything that does a better job with colour than that camera. The reds are SO well balanced on that camera.

Anyhow, shots like this are what I could not achieve easily with my 5D... just pure, totally neutral colour:

IMAGE: http://www.nightanddayphoto.ca/misc/forumpics/wff/AlyaRandallW/142546_5123.jpg

The 10D and 1Ds3 banged these neutral colours out all day. The 5D files required individual tweaking of the red, orange, and yellow channels to tame the reddish tones and balance them with the other colours. The 40D sometimes needed tweaking, sometimes not, but was generally easier to handle in my experience.

Like I said, if you are NOT looking for neutral, natural tones, then the 5D reds probably won't bother you nearly as much as it does for me (or the OP). So I'm definitely not speaking for the masses here. Honestly, I rarely see fully neutral photos posted here, so I guess it's not too popular of a style.

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May 10, 2011 10:29 |  #57

picturecrazy wrote in post #12382606 (external link)
Watch out... you've awakened the 5D fanboi monsters!!! ;)

I actually shot a 5D and 40D side by side for a while. I eventually sold the 5D and it funded a second 40D for me. I too saw some of the same issues you were seeing. The FIRST thing I noticed in the 40D raw files was the smoother tonal gradations. I was later told this was due to the 14 bit files. The second thing I noticed was the reds weren't as hot as the 5D reds (still a bit on the hot side though). There are reds splattered throughout skin tones, and I actually DID have a harder time getting neutral, natural skin tones on my 5D compared to my 40D. It wasn't as obvious on screen until I got a wide gamut aRGB professional imaging monitor and WOW! I was blown away at how much extra reds the 5D was putting out. Reds that most people cannot see on their consumer grade monitors. It also made BW conversions more difficult as the reds were splattering and overpowering the orange shades causing a rougher, more speckled appearance (like razor burn, if you're not careful). You can compensate for it (in Lightroom with all the cool colour sliders) but it did take a little more work.

But the modern king of all of them is the 1Ds mark III. It has the best colour rendition I've seen if you like natural, pure, realistic neutral colours. If you like to add toning layers, cross process, partially desturate, or add effects, then the 5D was pretty killer. But I wanted the FULLY neutral, natural look, and the 1Ds mark III does that well. There was only one camera I've used that does a better job, and that is the old 10D. I've never used anything that does a better job with colour than that camera. The reds are SO well balanced on that camera.

Anyhow, shots like this are what I could not achieve easily with my 5D... just pure, totally neutral colour:
QUOTED IMAGE

The 10D and 1Ds3 banged these neutral colours out all day. The 5D files required individual tweaking of the red, orange, and yellow channels to tame the reddish tones and balance them with the other colours. The 40D sometimes needed tweaking, sometimes not, but was generally easier to handle in my experience.

Like I said, if you are NOT looking for neutral, natural tones, then the 5D reds probably won't bother you nearly as much as it does for me (or the OP). So I'm definitely not speaking for the masses here. Honestly, I rarely see fully neutral photos posted here, so I guess it's not too popular of a style.

So... after all of that.. you've clipped your red channel. ;)


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May 10, 2011 10:36 |  #58

melcat wrote in post #12363112 (external link)
The 5D has a 12-bit ADC, while the more modern ones have a 14-bit one. (I'm not sure about some of the specific models being mentioned here.) This means that if you don't get the exposure right in the camera, and try to correct it on the computer, you will get exactly the problems you are complaining about.

I'm afraid that you are missing a vital element in this analysis: dynamic range. If you have two sensors with 12 and 14 bits per channel and the same dynamic range, variations in exposure will not be more correctable in the 14-bit image. There will simply be more tones over the same range and none beyond. On the other hand, a sensor with greater dynamic range will be more forgiving of exposure sloppiness, even if it has only 12-bits per channel. However, the 14-bit sensor probably also has greater dynamic range. It's still a different variable.


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May 10, 2011 12:27 |  #59

BrandonSi wrote in post #12382636 (external link)
So... after all of that.. you've clipped your red channel. ;)

Congratulations measurebator; you've proved nothing! It's not a practical science to analyze to that degree. If there is a clipped red in a minute portion of the image but the overall tonality and colour is good then the point is moot. Just like how the blues go right into the blacks, it's not a point of concern. That's like setting up a shot and exposing the subject and the background beautifully, but having the sun in the corner with a few clipped highlights. A few clipped highlights in the brightest part of the sun would not undermine the beauty of a great shot.

The point is... the 5D would have clipped a LOT more reds which likely would have affected the overall neutral, natural tones of the shot, requiring more processing to bring it all into line. My frustration was the reds on the 5D were SO powerful that it was easy to clip reds beyond recovery, even if the blues and greens were shot BELOW the ideal saturation/luminance.


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May 10, 2011 13:21 |  #60

picturecrazy wrote in post #12383330 (external link)
Congratulations measurebator; you've proved nothing! It's not a practical science to analyze to that degree.

Wait.. the guy with the "wide gamut aRGB professional imaging monitor " who can see reds "that most people cannot see on their consumer grade monitors" is calling me the measurebator?

Don't be so defensive.. :) I'm just pointing out that no matter what camera you use, and how much effort you put into it, it's very difficult to get a color neutral photograph.


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Feeling the age of the 5D original...want to buy new lower end cam.
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