Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 17 May 2011 (Tuesday) 10:09
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Free photography killing business

 
Your ­ Story ­ Photoart
Senior Member
Avatar
461 posts
Joined Oct 2010
Location: my own little world
     
May 19, 2011 09:07 |  #166

spkerer wrote in post #12439365 (external link)
Would I know if someone was there trying to earn a living? Again, I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here. If I go somewhere and want to take photos of it, I'm going to take photos of it. I may not even notice other photographers there, but even if I do notice other photographers I'm not going to ask each one "are you trying to make a living at this?"

Let me clarify. You have every right to take photos at any event, even with pro gear, if the venue has no rules saying you can't. I've done that at sporting events before too.

Where I think you have every right to do so I would have a problem if you went around the stands telling everyone "I'm giving away pictures of this event for free". That's what I meant. If you're just taking pics for yourself and you're not interfering with the hired pro then enjoy!

There's no absolute way to know whose hired to cover an event but usually their in parts of the event where general public aren't allowed. Sometimes they have a media pass around their neck too. That's the only way I've noticed before.


iPhone gripped

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
charro ­ callado
Goldmember
Avatar
1,144 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 6
Joined Mar 2008
Location: PA
     
May 19, 2011 09:09 |  #167

spkerer wrote in post #12439365 (external link)
Would I know if someone was there trying to earn a living? Again, I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here. If I go somewhere and want to take photos of it, I'm going to take photos of it. I may not even notice other photographers there, but even if I do notice other photographers I'm not going to ask each one "are you trying to make a living at this?"

There is not only that practical hurdle, but there is also the theoretical hurdle of concluding that a photographer who is "trying to make a living" is somehow more entitled to take and publish photos than I am; so entitled, in fact, that my right to do so either does or should vanish completely.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
spkerer
Senior Member
Avatar
953 posts
Likes: 30
Joined Mar 2008
Location: Leesburg, VA USA
     
May 19, 2011 09:19 |  #168

Your Story Photoart wrote:
=Your Story Photoart;12439436Where I think you have every right to do so I would have a problem if you went around the stands telling everyone "I'm giving away pictures of this event for free". That's what I meant. If you're just taking pics for yourself and you're not interfering with the hired pro then enjoy!

Excellent. We're in agreement then. I don't advertise or yell or such that I'm taking photos and that they can have them for free. However, if someone unsolicited asks me if I got a photo of X and can they have it, I'll tell them sure as long as they give me their email or some way to contact them.

And in those cases, I'm taking photos from the stands or wherever I'm normally allowed, so I'm not interfering with any working pros with special access. I don't solicit people, but the 300 does attract some attention and I can't really help that.

In the case of emergency scenes and the various fire/rescue training events I take photos of, I've been doing that for a while and enjoying myself while doing it. If someone showed up at one of those events trying to "make a living" off of doing that, good luck to them. I'm not going to change what I'm doing.


Leesburg, Virginia
http://photos.kusterer​s.net (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
cdifoto
Don't get pissy with me
Avatar
34,090 posts
Likes: 43
Joined Dec 2005
     
May 19, 2011 09:37 |  #169

Your Story Photoart wrote in post #12439374 (external link)
Ya but you cut off my next sentence. I did say that some can tell but most wouldn't unless you had two photos side by side. I agree that many would overlook low quality just because it's free.

If they have to be side by side, then I don't think you can call one "crap" and the other "good." "Good" and "better" might be a more fair set of terms but when they need to be scrutinized, it's getting down to preference.


Did you lose Digital Photo Professional (DPP)? Get it here (external link). Cursing at your worse-than-a-map reflector? Check out this vid! (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Willie
Senior Member
959 posts
Likes: 2
Joined Feb 2004
     
May 19, 2011 10:03 |  #170

Your Story Photoart wrote in post #12439301 (external link)
That's fine on it's own, but would you show up to an event where someone was there trying to earn a living and still give away free photos?

If I go to an event where there is food vendor and bringing my own food is allowed, should I not show up with my own food or even share it with my friends?




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
spkerer
Senior Member
Avatar
953 posts
Likes: 30
Joined Mar 2008
Location: Leesburg, VA USA
     
May 19, 2011 10:11 |  #171

Willie wrote in post #12439693 (external link)
If I go to an event where there is food vendor and bringing my own food is allowed, should I not show up with my own food or even share it with my friends?

Funny you mention that. At the closest track to me (Old Dominion Speedway in Manassas, VA), they have food and drink vendors on-site and you're also allowed to bring in your own food and drinks. We usually buy burgers there because they're hot when you get them and they're not way overpriced.

So stretching this a bit... you're allowed to bring your own food. But practically speaking, they differentiate themselves by providing hot food on demand and a variety of food - again on demand.


Leesburg, Virginia
http://photos.kusterer​s.net (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Your ­ Story ­ Photoart
Senior Member
Avatar
461 posts
Joined Oct 2010
Location: my own little world
     
May 19, 2011 10:26 |  #172

Willie wrote in post #12439693 (external link)
If I go to an event where there is food vendor and bringing my own food is allowed, should I not show up with my own food or even share it with my friends?

You have the right to do whatever you like


iPhone gripped

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
anothernewb
Senior Member
Avatar
361 posts
Gallery: 1 photo
Likes: 39
Joined Jan 2009
Location: MN, USA
     
May 19, 2011 10:28 |  #173

wow this thread has gotten deep. I find some of the arguments on both sides valid, and some of them are, to put it bluntly - a little whiny. I'm that hobbyist that probably is the target of so much ire. I show up, shotgun a couple hundred shots and share them with my friends & family. I've never been paid, and never expect to.

Forgive me if I step on a few pro toes here, but I always saw pro photography as a competetive private service industry like any other. Yep, there's alot of amateurs and hobbyists with oodles of cash to buy fancy gear with - just like any other industry. Like carpentry, auto repair, computer repair - etc. And like all those others, you have many options on who to choose from, and like any other event - how important it is to you should dictate what you do with it, and what you spend on it.

but complaining and wishing to ban all photogs other than the pros from any pro covered site is like asking to government to ban all cars on the road other than yours because you can't have your favorite parking spot at the mall. or asking the city to ban homeowner lawnmowers because you own a lawn service, or banning snow shovels because you own a removal service. That isn't a solution - it's complaining. Expecting someone else to solve your problems for you is IMO diametrically the opposite of being an independent business owner like a pro photographer.

The argument was given that an amateur can show up and take shotgun 1,000's of pics and put them up for free. He/she might get lucky and get in a dozen great shots. yep they can. I can be a shadetree mechanic and take apart a car to fix it too. I might not get it right the first time and I have to do it again. The difference comes in time and effort. a pro mechanic doesn't need to take the whole car apart to diagnose the problem. he removes only what is needed to fix it and gets on with another project. Time is money - does not the same principal apply here to photography as well? As a pro, you don't need to shotgun 1,000 shots to get a great one. your hit rate should be much higher. As a pro, you should know how to watch for the right timing and placement. That is your selling point. your time and effort = profit. that's a good thing. Just like a good mechanic, word gets around that you get the job done, and business soon takes care of itself. Another thing is that a pro will do things when a hobbyist wont. you won't catch me out with my gear in the rain, over a long trek, or in tight spaces. forget it. my shooting is for fun - if it's icky out - it's no fun. that's where i'd call a pro again. to do it when it's not fun, or when it needs to get done right the first time.

Same with weddings, yep cousins John and Jane have this monster cam and put 10,000 pics up on their facebook last month. Sure they're going to bring it to the wedding. will they get in some good shots? you bet, law of averages. However, it comes back to time and effort again. There is a need for a pro at these times. one with the knowledge to get the shot you want in a MINIMUM of time and effort. IMO that's what I always thought I was paying for with photo sessions. not the gear, but the experience. I want the photog that can get it and move on to the next item. I don;t want to have to think about the photog being there. that's why I hired one. How did I find one - I asked around and looked at the portfolios available. I went with the one that handled people similar to me and situations similar to mine. Good skills sell themselves, and are never bested by a new gadget or the number of alternatives available.

which is my second point. no matter the number of amateurs out there, there will always be a demand for pro's. so stop worrying/complaining. After all - how did you get to be a pro? you practiced - and probably shadowed a pro and learned the trade.

As far as those giving away their shots for free. Free doesn't necessarily mean good. lots of things are free - but value isn't. the track that the OP mentioned sounds to me like it has a lot of "good times" people at it who are all out for fun. as a business owner, you need to see a demand and capitalize on it. Well, in the OP's case that may signal that the pro photog needs to show something that showcases his/her skills it's entirely possible that the traditional selling "photos" might not be the ticket anymore. posters is a great idea, maybe it's time to capitalize on advertizement shots instead of action shots. In this case I don't know - and I'll take the flaming for that if it happens. I'm not a business owner, nor a professional photog (otherwise I wouldn't have the time to blast all this opinion out on the forum....)

i guess the bottom line IMO is that it's accepted that the business is changing. However, it's up to you as a photog to recognize that its simply a change, not a drop in demand or a loss of employment for you as a pro.

Take for example another industry that's been totally upended by technology. TV repair. every town used to have the good old Zenith or RCA guy that would come to your house if the tube went on the fritz. I think we all would agree that that industry is gone now. Or is it? in my area the TV and electronics shop changed over to home theater specialization, cell phones, and car stereo stuff in addition to tv sales. While the analogy might be not be perfect. the real thing to consider is to make the change work with you.

OK now that I've basically set myself up to get flamed -


Gripped 80D,10-18 STM, 55-250 IS STM, 15-85 IS USM, 85 1.8, 10-400 II, 430 EX II

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
RDKirk
Adorama says I'm "packed."
Avatar
13,779 posts
Gallery: 3 photos
Likes: 983
Joined May 2004
Location: USA
     
May 19, 2011 10:38 |  #174

cdifoto wrote in post #12439562 (external link)
If they have to be side by side, then I don't think you can call one "crap" and the other "good." "Good" and "better" might be a more fair set of terms but when they need to be scrutinized, it's getting down to preference.

In the area of "record" photography ("Here is a picture of me on my cycle"), good may be clearly better but it might just not make a difference worth paying much for...ever. That's why I think that in the main, there is no profit to be made anymore in amateur sports photography--except in those sports where people pay major money to participate, such as equestrian events, and the marketing is for special portraiture rather than simply the record of participation in an event.

There's just no point playing on a level field with hobbyists. You have to hit the ball where they don't have fielders.


TANSTAAFL--The Only Unbreakable Rule in Photography

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Bosscat
Goldmember
1,892 posts
Joined Apr 2005
Location: Ontario Canada
     
May 19, 2011 10:45 |  #175

Once a potential customer has picked up some free images, the chances of him turning around and buying some from a person selling is probably slim, as he has filled his need for some photos.

If your grocery store was giving away free produce, would you go to the next town to buy any more produce at full retail??


Your camera is alot smarter than the "M" Zealots would have you believe

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Your ­ Story ­ Photoart
Senior Member
Avatar
461 posts
Joined Oct 2010
Location: my own little world
     
May 19, 2011 11:15 |  #176

charro callado wrote in post #12439442 (external link)
There is not only that practical hurdle, but there is also the theoretical hurdle of concluding that a photographer who is "trying to make a living" is somehow more entitled to take and publish photos than I am; so entitled, in fact, that my right to do so either does or should vanish completely.

I'll say it again, there is NOTHING wrong with taking your camera to an event and taking pictures for your own personal use. If the track has no policy against this, then YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO DO IT. But obviously we have differing opinions about respecting someone who is trying to earn a living or that was hired to cover an event or allowed to capture and sell his images to those in attendance.

I'm not arguing what's right or wrong because like so many aspects of photography, IT'S SUBJECTIVE. There is no right or wrong.

The matter to me is about respect. Now if it's another full time pro that shows up and tries to take this guys business, that's business! That's competition. But if you're an amateur and you're going to events and telling people that you'll post all of the pics you took for free on your website, YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DO THAT. Do I think that person has no respect for the professional trying to earn a living, YES. That's my opinion, it's not right or wrong.

Example: I took my family to the World Equestrian Games in KY back in September. I took my 5D2 and 70-200 because I knew we were going to an event where I'd be in the stands. I got to the gate and they wouldn't let me in with it. I had to go get a media pass BUT they didn't have me sign anything that said I couldn't sell the photos or publish them. Even as another Pro, I could have then went in and started passing out my card and trying to take business away from the Pros that were there covering the event. But I didn't, I have enough RESPECT for other professionals to NOT do that. I took the photos for the challenge and enjoyment and also to document it for my family.

RESPECT is the issue for me.


iPhone gripped

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Your ­ Story ­ Photoart
Senior Member
Avatar
461 posts
Joined Oct 2010
Location: my own little world
     
May 19, 2011 11:20 |  #177

RDKirk wrote in post #12439880 (external link)
In the area of "record" photography ("Here is a picture of me on my cycle"), good may be clearly better but it might just not make a difference worth paying much for...ever. That's why I think that in the main, there is no profit to be made anymore in amateur sports photography--except in those sports where people pay major money to participate, such as equestrian events, and the marketing is for special portraiture rather than simply the record of participation in an event.

There's just no point playing on a level field with hobbyists. You have to hit the ball where they don't have fielders.

Actually at the equestrian events I cover, I sell more of the "recorded event" than I do of anything posed. And sure almost all of the Moms have their Rebels/kit lens out shooting right along side of me. But recording the horse at just the right time as it's clearing a gate is not easy to do, so I still sell more of those shots than I do of the poses.

Not trying to argue, just saying that in my experience, this is what I've had happen.


iPhone gripped

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
cdifoto
Don't get pissy with me
Avatar
34,090 posts
Likes: 43
Joined Dec 2005
     
May 19, 2011 11:22 |  #178

RDKirk wrote in post #12439880 (external link)
In the area of "record" photography ("Here is a picture of me on my cycle"), good may be clearly better but it might just not make a difference worth paying much for...ever. That's why I think that in the main, there is no profit to be made anymore in amateur sports photography--except in those sports where people pay major money to participate, such as equestrian events, and the marketing is for special portraiture rather than simply the record of participation in an event.

There's just no point playing on a level field with hobbyists. You have to hit the ball where they don't have fielders.

I agree entirely. That's also why I don't really do that basic type of photography, and if someone wanted to hire me for it I wouldn't charge very much. It's a shoot & burn style of work that doesn't take much time or creativity. A quick easy buck, if you will.


Did you lose Digital Photo Professional (DPP)? Get it here (external link). Cursing at your worse-than-a-map reflector? Check out this vid! (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
cdifoto
Don't get pissy with me
Avatar
34,090 posts
Likes: 43
Joined Dec 2005
     
May 19, 2011 11:27 |  #179

Bosscat wrote in post #12439925 (external link)
Once a potential customer has picked up some free images, the chances of him turning around and buying some from a person selling is probably slim, as he has filled his need for some photos.

If your grocery store was giving away free produce, would you go to the next town to buy any more produce at full retail??

I'll go out of my way to get something that's better. Hell I drove 90 miles to spend a few hundred dollars on a new cell phone - because it was significantly better than what I had.


Did you lose Digital Photo Professional (DPP)? Get it here (external link). Cursing at your worse-than-a-map reflector? Check out this vid! (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
RDKirk
Adorama says I'm "packed."
Avatar
13,779 posts
Gallery: 3 photos
Likes: 983
Joined May 2004
Location: USA
     
May 19, 2011 11:38 |  #180

Your Story Photoart wrote in post #12440127 (external link)
Actually at the equestrian events I cover, I sell more of the "recorded event" than I do of anything posed. And sure almost all of the Moms have their Rebels/kit lens out shooting right along side of me. But recording the horse at just the right time as it's clearing a gate is not easy to do, so I still sell more of those shots than I do of the poses.

They'll get better. That's why they're whining about the 5D having such slow fps rates. When Rebels get up to 10 fps, you'll have problems.


TANSTAAFL--The Only Unbreakable Rule in Photography

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

17,253 views & 0 likes for this thread
Free photography killing business
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is Flo29
876 guests, 247 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.