Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 30 Jul 2011 (Saturday) 08:31
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Cost of Going Above & Beyond

 
jmweb
Senior Member
Avatar
525 posts
Likes: 17
Joined Jan 2011
Location: PEI
     
Jul 30, 2011 08:31 |  #1

Client asked me to take some pictures for them for their new biz.

Went out and took photos with my 5DII on 70-200mm. Setup the 7D+17-40mm on tripod and let it run video of the event in the same area.

Tooks lots of photos. In the end I filled about 20GB of video.


In the end, I gave them about 6 DVD's. 5 of them were video and 1 was photos. I processed about 20 photos in lightroom and didn't look at the video.

This week, the guy I typically deal with was in Europe so one of the partners emailed me asking to send 2 photos to the local press. Did it.

Then I got an email from my contact and he said they didn't feel the video was of a satisfactory quality and as such offered to pay 60% of the invoice.

Shocked I told him that I was only asked to do photography and not video. The video was a bonus. His response was that they were not happy with the video as it wasn't usable.

I again informed him that had I charged him for video or was asked to do video, I'd certainly discount it but I wasn't ever asked for video however it was something I knew they needed for Youtube/their website (which I designed for them).

This goes to show that going above & beyond isn't always in your best interest and leaves a foul taste in my mouth with this long term (web development) client.


John Morris Photo - PEI, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick photographer (external link)
The most powerful work: editorial. JohnMorrisPhoto.ca (external link)
Gear: Canon 1dx, Canon 7dx Mark II, Canon 5d S, Canon 5d SR..

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
jcpoulin
Goldmember
Avatar
2,447 posts
Likes: 13
Joined Jun 2006
Location: Massachusetts
     
Jul 30, 2011 08:50 |  #2

Ask them for the video back and tell them if it is used in ANY way, they are violating copyright laws....AND pay the photography invoice in full by allotted time!


1DX , 7D,16-35, 24-70 2.8II, 2.8L II, , 70-200 f2.8LII IS, 300 f2.8L IS, 500 f4 IS, 100-400L, Canon 100 2.8 macro, Canon 1.4X, 580ex, AB800X4
Canon CPS Member, PPA
www.capturingtimephoto​graphy.net (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Hogloff
Cream of the Crop
7,606 posts
Likes: 415
Joined Apr 2003
Location: British Columbia
     
Jul 30, 2011 09:44 |  #3
bannedPermanent ban

Just sounds like more communication is needed. The person you originally setup the shoot with is not around, so there is a good chance something was lost in the handoff to this new guy. Did you have anything in writing describing your obligations. Maybe just some communication / education might be a better approach rather than hostility towards the company.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
jimbob85
Member
165 posts
Joined Dec 2009
Location: New Ulm, MN
     
Jul 30, 2011 10:09 |  #4

This is worth watching.
http://vimeo.com/22053​820 (external link)




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Stone-Rogers
Member
169 posts
Joined Jun 2011
Location: LaGrange, GA-USA
     
Jul 30, 2011 12:48 |  #5

jimbob85 wrote in post #12847944 (external link)
This is worth watching.
http://vimeo.com/22053​820 (external link)

That's killer.
I hope you had a contract of some kind in place.


www.stone-rogers.com (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
PeaceFire
Goldmember
Avatar
2,281 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Feb 2009
Location: Glendale, AZ - Chico, CA - Duluth, MN
     
Jul 30, 2011 19:55 |  #6

Wait, you did the work and gave them DVDs WITHOUT getting paid? At this point I'd be worried if you're lucky to see any money at all. Personally I won't even shoot without being paid in full.

Just send him a copy of the contract that states you were hired for photos only. Then demand the video back if it's not satisfactory.


My Gear List / My Blog (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
markd61
Member
60 posts
Likes: 12
Joined Apr 2011
     
Jul 30, 2011 20:43 |  #7

Was there a contract? If so then it is plain as day that the invoice was for still imagery.
As Peacefire points out NO work should get into the hands of a client without payment.

I fear this will be one of those learning experiences.

I have no idea as to the quality of the video but I would strongly urge never showing or sharing new techniques or products with clients until you are feeling very confident about the work.

Good luck




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
markd61
Member
60 posts
Likes: 12
Joined Apr 2011
     
Jul 30, 2011 20:45 |  #8

jimbob85 wrote in post #12847944 (external link)
This is worth watching.
http://vimeo.com/22053​820 (external link)

One of my favorite videos. A must see for anyone hoping to get paid from their work.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
jmweb
THREAD ­ STARTER
Senior Member
Avatar
525 posts
Likes: 17
Joined Jan 2011
Location: PEI
     
Jul 30, 2011 21:30 |  #9

PeaceFire wrote in post #12849845 (external link)
Wait, you did the work and gave them DVDs WITHOUT getting paid? At this point I'd be worried if you're lucky to see any money at all. Personally I won't even shoot without being paid in full.

Just send him a copy of the contract that states you were hired for photos only. Then demand the video back if it's not satisfactory.

Normally I would do this however the particular client in question has been a client of mine through my web development business for a year and we've worked on a few projects together. So, I would say hes a trusted client at this point in time and one of my bigger ones too.

So no contract and yes I am a bit surprised and will be moreso surprised if I don't actually get paid from this gig as I know they have future plans for web development.


John Morris Photo - PEI, Nova Scotia and New Brunswick photographer (external link)
The most powerful work: editorial. JohnMorrisPhoto.ca (external link)
Gear: Canon 1dx, Canon 7dx Mark II, Canon 5d S, Canon 5d SR..

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
cdifoto
Don't get pissy with me
Avatar
34,090 posts
Likes: 40
Joined Dec 2005
     
Jul 31, 2011 00:31 |  #10

I always try to go above and beyond but I make sure they know I'm going above and beyond. It's always worth it, but I don't do it by adding services and/or stuff that I'm not good at and didn't care enough about to even review. There's no value in that.


Did you lose Digital Photo Professional (DPP)? Get it here (external link). Cursing at your worse-than-a-map reflector? Check out this vid! (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
llareggub
Senior Member
Avatar
631 posts
Gallery: 10 photos
Likes: 17
Joined Nov 2009
Location: Hungary, Jasz Kun Szolnok
     
Jul 31, 2011 02:01 as a reply to  @ cdifoto's post |  #11

"In the end, I gave them about 6 DVD's. 5 of them were video and 1 was photos. I processed about 20 photos in lightroom and didn't look at the video."

The thing that surprises me is that you gave a client a product as a "bonus" on this job and you never even looked at it, I do not see it as going above and beyond, exceeding client expectations is going above and beyond not delvering a product that the client may not want that you did not bother to review.

Everything that you do in any business will colour how client, potential client or supplier sees you so giving them 20gb of video that you did not look at would to me seem a very poorly considered choice.

Sorry if that comes across as harsh but it makes little to no sense to me?


My Website :D (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
cdifoto
Don't get pissy with me
Avatar
34,090 posts
Likes: 40
Joined Dec 2005
     
Jul 31, 2011 02:46 |  #12

llareggub wrote in post #12851103 (external link)
"In the end, I gave them about 6 DVD's. 5 of them were video and 1 was photos. I processed about 20 photos in lightroom and didn't look at the video."

The thing that surprises me is that you gave a client a product as a "bonus" on this job and you never even looked at it, I do not see it as going above and beyond, exceeding client expectations is going above and beyond not delvering a product that the client may not want that you did not bother to review.

Everything that you do in any business will colour how client, potential client or supplier sees you so giving them 20gb of video that you did not look at would to me seem a very poorly considered choice.

Sorry if that comes across as harsh but it makes little to no sense to me?

Agreed. It's like someone selling their house and including their shed full of old crap as a "bonus" when the reality is there might be some stuff in there that's still usable but the chances are so slim it's not worth their time to sort through it and find out for sure.

Having said that, I don't think the OP owes the client a discount any more than the home seller owes the new buyers a discount when they find out there's nothing in there they can use.


Did you lose Digital Photo Professional (DPP)? Get it here (external link). Cursing at your worse-than-a-map reflector? Check out this vid! (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
llareggub
Senior Member
Avatar
631 posts
Gallery: 10 photos
Likes: 17
Joined Nov 2009
Location: Hungary, Jasz Kun Szolnok
     
Jul 31, 2011 04:15 |  #13

cdifoto wrote in post #12851179 (external link)
Agreed. It's like someone selling their house and including their shed full of old crap as a "bonus" when the reality is there might be some stuff in there that's still usable but the chances are so slim it's not worth their time to sort through it and find out for sure.

Having said that, I don't think the OP owes the client a discount any more than the home seller owes the new buyers a discount when they find out there's nothing in there they can use.

Definately agree with you on the discount, probably should have said that more clearly.


My Website :D (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
memoriesoftomorrow
Goldmember
3,846 posts
Likes: 289
Joined Nov 2010
     
Jul 31, 2011 05:36 |  #14

jmweb wrote in post #12850154 (external link)
So no contract and yes I am a bit surprised and will be moreso surprised if I don't actually get paid from this gig as I know they have future plans for web development.

No contract is a school boy error in my opinion. Friend, acquaintance neighbour etc it makes no difference, it protects you and it protects the client as well as managing expectations.

Also I have to say not giving the photos prior to payment is a no brainer in my book. No matter how you look at it being paid prior to delivering guarantees 100% that you will be paid and removes any possible issue of not being paid. Any other way automatically introduces a risk which is entirely avoidable.

As for giving them 5 DVD's of video which you couldn't even be bothered to look over that was not the smartest move by any means. Look at it this way from your client's perspective (irrespective of the "agreement") 83% of what you gave them was crap or sub standard (DVD wise). In that respect them offering to pay only 60% of the invoice may be considered by them as a generous offer.

In your position with no contract and the possible loss of work in other business areas in the future I'd cut my losses. I'd put the lost income down to "being naive" and making some rather silly mistakes which I wouldn't do again. I'm afraid you only have yourself to blame.

As for going "above and beyond" I am afraid I have to disagree. You didn't. In fact you didn't even cover one of the most basic elements (the contract), which is falling short really. You failed to manage expectations. You delivered a product which was sub standard (regardless as to whether they asked for it or not).

Hopefully it will be lesson learned for the future. Just tweak your next web development project cost with them to cover you losses here.


Peter

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
ssim
POTN Landscape & Cityscape Photographer 2005
Avatar
10,884 posts
Likes: 5
Joined Apr 2003
Location: southern Alberta, Canada
     
Jul 31, 2011 22:38 as a reply to  @ memoriesoftomorrow's post |  #15

I have done lots of jobs with various companies with nothing more than a simply purchase order. When you do comercial work it is not always possible to get paid before the shoot has to happen. If you are hard nosed and won't do a shoot until the money is in the bank then other photographers are thanking you. I have yet to be stiffed by anyone. There is a very detailed fax an/or email trail that I have no doubts would stand up in court.

I've done the above and beyond work. It doesn't pay. You think I'll wow them with this or that but in the end they didn't ask for it and it is best to give them exactly what they asked for. You are not dealing with a bride that can be easily swayed, commercial work is that you are dealing with a company and all they care about is getting what they originally asked for. You also lower the bar for yourself for future potential jobs with them. Well you gave us the photos and the video for x last time even though you may have done the video for the wow factor.


My life is like one big RAW file....way too much post processing needed.
Sheldon Simpson | My Gallery (external link) | My Gear updated: 20JUL12

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

3,169 views & 0 likes for this thread
Cost of Going Above & Beyond
FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is zev
853 guests, 323 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.