Marketing / Consumer Behavior, Price and Photography

airfrogusmc wrote in post #12848322
There are objective criteria by which we can determine whether or not a work is successful ("good")."

Not in art. Photography isn't binary.

Oh and guess what? Even with regards to regulated industries like plumbing, medicine, law, etc. If you want to hang a shingle then you have to be certified and licensed and all that stuff. But you don't have to be a member of the bar to represent yourself or speak up for a cousin in court. You don't have to have a license to fix your friends' plumbing and take cash for it. You don't have to be a doctor to put a tourniquet on your buddy's leg.

You can do all of these things under the radar. A gild (which kind of already exists - it's called the PPA) isn't actually needed. Governmental regulation would just create a black market.

cdifoto wrote in post #12848401
Commercial doesn't have an exclusive hold on this.

The lack of regulation is precisely why some sink and some swim. All the competition drives quality up. There's a lot more quality photography out there than you realize. The successful...truly successful...professio​nal photographers are kicking ass. They don't NEED a gild.

Ansel Adams was a good photographer but if he really thought a gild would keep quality high he had no idea about economics or market supply & demand.

Look at USA telecoms. Little competition = high prices, poor service. Look at the oil industry. Little competition = high prices.

Very few that post here have a better grasp on the exact thing that you talk about than Adams had. He actually made a living and a very good one just selling his art.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #12848444
Very few that post here have a better grasp on the exact thing that you talk about than Adams had. He actually made a living and a very good one just selling his art.

That doesn't mean his opinions are fact or that he's an economist. My nephew's 7 years old and he sold thousands of dollars of stuff for his school. That doesn't mean he's ready to hop on the 6:00 news as an advisor.

You may worship the dude, but I don't.

cdifoto wrote in post #12848413
Not in art. Photography isn't binary.

There are things that keep people down in the muck fighting it out with the herd and there are real reasons that some aren't down there. You'll figure it out. Theres more to all this than you think and knowing it could mean the difference between actually making a good living or maybe not. The thing I can't understand is why someone the is a photographer and one that has desire to be really good doesn't want to learn as much as they can about what they do. All of these things and this knowledge only makes one a better photograher and that is going to become more and more important as time goes on. Me, I would rather be dealing with clients that understand these things than those that don't.

cdifoto wrote in post #12848450
That doesn't mean his opinions are fact or that he's an economist. My nephew's 7 years old and he sold thousands of dollars of stuff for his school. That doesn't mean he's ready to hop on the 6:00 news as an advisor.

You may worship the dude, but I don't.

I don't worship anyone. He didn't just talk the talk he walked the walk.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #12848460
There are things that keep people down in the muck fighting it out with the herd and there are real reasons that some aren't down there. You'll figure it out. Theres more to all this than you think and knowing it could mean the difference between actually making a good living or maybe not. The thing I can't understand is why someone the is a photographer and one that has desire to be really good doesn't want to learn as much as they can about what they do. All of these things and this knowledge only makes one a better photograher and that is going to become more and more important as time goes on. Me, I would rather be dealing with clients that understand these things than those that don't.

People should learn because they want to improve, not because some self righteous panel says they need to do so to keep their license to do something subjective.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #12848466
I don't worship anyone. He didn't just talk the talk he walked the walk.

My nephew walked the walk too. He still doesn't know how the world works.

[QUOTE=L5intoR5/Cr;128​47495]I think you are overlooking the fact that many people simply don't have the high expectations that we all think they should have or did have.
Good enough really is good enough for most people if the price is appropriate, it was with film, it is still with digital. What has happened is the mystique of getting a good shot is now gone.

I agree with the above. Get a Facebook account and start friending people with Rebels etc. that post pictures. The wonderful comments are out of this world. Look at the technically poor senior portraits being sold and the love comments about them and it's obvious that Rebels are going to be the demise of many pros. Many good photographers are sucking hind tit because people just don't want to pay for good work when their neighbor will do it for free or a "pro" photog with a Rebel and one lens will do it really cheap.
(More than likely they are operating illegally) This is where a lot have pros have failed to adapt, they need to report illegal activity and knock out the cheap competition.
People realize they can't take perfect photos every time but when the can take as many as they want and see them instantly until they are happy their ability to meet their needs is much easier to meet. This leads people to believe that in part anyone can shoot enough photos and get some good ones, to the point that they don't care that you can get them 10 fantastic images in 15 shots, as long as they can end up with 10 good images it could take 15, 50, or 300 for that matter.
Absolutely correct, people have told me the same thing, Facebook and Flickr is proof positive.Photographers are now service and experience providers. Present yourself as being someone who will provide a fantastic experience that includes having fun, being relaxed, quality and impactful/meaningful images and you'll be more successful. QUOTE]

I agree with the above but it won't make you any more money, there's lots of "perky" photogs out there that will go broke because photography is being devalued so badly.

mobei wrote in post #12850565
I agree with the above but it won't make you any more money, there's lots of "perky" photogs out there that will go broke because photography is being devalued so badly.

I'm not sure you understand what I mean as service and customer experience...

There's more to providing an experience than simply being "perky." Service requires more than just cheery smiles.

ETA: Actually, you really don't need to be "perky" at all. I'm sure as hell not.

L5intoR5/Cr wrote in post #12850648
I'm not sure you understand what I mean as service and customer experience...

Service and customer experience are almost a cliche nowadays(thank you Internet). They are from a by gone era. It's all about cheap and free when it comes to general photography nowadays.
People that can easily afford "proven" master photogs in my area routinely book mediocre or bad photogs or an acquantince with a "good" camera because of their cheaper prices or free.

"Proven" doesn't mean anything either if the work they produce is so proven that it has become boring.

Photographers tend to think consumers' standards are getting lower but I think it's the exact opposite. I think peoples' standards are getting higher. It's getting harder to impress people so if you want to make money you have to be better than ever. If you're just "okay" then you'll be bunched in with the other guys who are just "okay" and the differentiator will be price.

As far as the facebook comments...that's just people being nice to their friends. They look past the technical stuff and see their friend, who they love very much. When they're actually shopping for their own photography, they want to get someone who makes them look amazing. They're more critical of photos of themselves than they are of photos of their friends when their money is on the line.

I might look at photography different than others, but I see it as an art with assistance from science. In my eyes you can't wrap that up in an apprenticeship or license any more than you could do it with an artist using canvas. The examples Adams uses in his writing are more professions that are science with a dash of art.

Either way, the best in any profession differentiate themselves by primarily letting there work speak for itself.

Personally, I never want to see art regulated. I think it would limit creativity.

Also, I agree marketing is critical to a photographer that wants to earn a living and prosper in photography.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #12847925
Sam,

Heres what Adams had to say about licensing in 1943.

Sorry I was to lazy to type this:

Ansel Adams

Whether you agree or not one thing I do think is we would have a profession that would be highly respected and would demand real compensation if we had some sort of licensing.

Very interesting. Thx for posting that.

I happen to agree on licensure to offer work for hire.

I wish that copyright violations were easier to prosecute even when a filing has not been made.