My Rant...

cacawcacaw wrote in post #12957213
But you're begging the question regarding the relationship between high quality work and valid arguments. Photography is an art and it is entirely possible for a photographer to have both an incredible portfolio and entirely incorrect notions as to which influencing factors are the most important.

I guess it comes down to what individuals determine are their most important "influencing factors"

I'm rushing to hide all the focal lengths that the OP might not approve of me having. I'm sorry for buying them if it upsets you so.

Let's see.. I've had the Canon 18-55, Sigma 24-70, Tamron 18-50 and now the Canon 24-70L. What you call an awkward focal length might not be so much for someone else. While the Tamon 18-50 was nice and wide, it wasn't long enough nor was it wide enough. While I'm missing a good wide end lens, the Canon 24-70 fit's me perfect. I'll get the Tokina 11-16 or 12-24 for my wide end. I owned the 12-24.

I would not suggest to anyone what are the "correct" lenses to own, but I have noted that almost everyone who says that the 24-70L or 24-105L is great on a crop body also has a separate lens for UWA work, or is planning to get one.

So for a newbie with a crop body camera, the OP has a valid point that the 24-70 or 24-105 might not be the best choice for a first lens unless they plan to follow that up with the 10-22 or an UWA prime.

In my case I really (really really) considered the 24-105L for my 50D. But I will occasionally shoot wider than 24mm - not often enough to justify a separate UWA, but enough that I've decided to stick with the 15-85.

neil_r wrote in post #12957415
I guess it comes down to what individuals determine are their most important "influencing factors"

Right, but even when a photographer can't correctly identify the most important factors in their work, it doesn't make their portfolio any worse. Much in the same way that someone can have outstanding technical expertise but lack the artist's eye for composition.

It's easy to argue when you reframe the other person's assertion. Remember, the "rant" wasn't about focal lengths. It was about giving advice.

jrbdmb wrote in post #12957609
I would not suggest to anyone what are the "correct" lenses to own, but I have noted that almost everyone who says that the 24-70L or 24-105L is great on a crop body also has a separate lens for UWA work, or is planning to get one.

So for a newbie with a crop body camera, the OP has a valid point that the 24-70 or 24-105 might not be the best choice for a first lens unless they plan to follow that up with the 10-22 or an UWA prime.

You may be right for a newbie with only one lens, but the OP was ranting about all crop users.

Mike wrote in post #12956746
http://www.canon.com …zoom/ef_35~105_​35~45.html

Have this lens. Absolutely love it.

Frugal wrote in post #12957634
You may be right for a newbie with only one lens, but the OP was ranting about all crop users.

kimchibrown wrote in post #12956185
My rant is about people advising others (especially newbies) ...

And really, it's limited to people advising other people...

I'm just saying that... ...we should be advising people...

Seems to me that she was ranting about giving advise.

kimchibrown wrote in post #12956185
My rant is about people advising others (especially newbies) to buy short telephoto lenses made for full frame cameras for cropped sensor cameras (60D, 7D, Rebels, etc).

Keep in mind, I am not trying to troll, just have a discussion about this subject. Also keep in mind that I'm really NOT ANGRY about it, I just think there is a lot of bad advice going around.

And really, it's limited to people advising other people to buy the Canon 24-70 and the 24-105 for cropped sensor cameras.

THIS IS INSANE (this is the rant part).

Shooting a Canon 24-70mm on a crop gives you a 38-105 (give or take a few mm) on a cropped sensor camera. Generally, it's not a good focal range.

People say things like "I plan to go full frame later on." Well, good! But Canon doesn't make a 38-105mm lens for full frame cameras. You can develop bad habits shooting with that. Why not buy the 17-55mm IS, develop good habits, and when you do move the full frame and purchase "the Brick", it will be a seamless transition. Sell the lens for a good percentage of the purchase price and know that your shooting habits won't have to change and there will be little to no adjustment period.

This is not to say ALL full frame lenses are bad on crop sensors. The 85mm is great, and it gives you the field of view of about 135mm, so when you do go full frame you can buy the 135mm and be on your merry way. A 70-200mm will give you a field of view of around 105-300mm, which is also useful. Even a Canon 35mm will give you a "normal" field of view on a cropped sensor camera.

I'm not saying people who use a full frame short telephoto lens are stupid or are bad people or are followers of Satan, I'm just saying that with so many excellent cropped sensor lenses out their (17-55 IS, 15-85 IS, Sigma 30mm - my favorite) that teach good shooting habits, we should be advising people to shoot with the lenses the cameras are designed for.

End Rant

Once again, I'm not trolling or wanting to start a flame war, so please, if you disagree, do it civilly. I have no problem being I'm told wrong and there may be some other aspects to this I haven't thought of.

I don't know that I see all that many people making those lenses a suggestion to newbies on APS-C.

I do see a fair number of newbies seemingly obsessed with the idea of the 17-40 or 24-105 or 24-70 because they want to move up to the amazing L.

Which in those cases is kind of foolish for most (of course there ARE some who don't like to shoot wider than 38mm and who do shot a lot on the semi-longer end and for those it may be another matter, but believe there are quite less like that than than not, so there certainly will be a good bunch who would be better with those Ls).

I do sometimes see some push for the 24-105 or 17-40 once a newbie has mentioned them and then sometimes all the talk about yeah that is for the best as what if you ever move to FF (but as you say well a 17-40 on FF sure ain't the same lens it is on APS-C and who says you even want a lens like that on FF, etc.) and some get carried away and themselves forget to even ask what focal range the person might want to use and just keep saying what if you go to FF?!!, weatehrsealing!!!, what if you ever got to FF?!!!?!, weathersealing!!.

But again, for some, there ARE reasons why those lenses could be better than the tamron 17-50 2.8, 28-75, sigma 17-50 OS, canon 15-85 IS 17-55 IS, although it is probably a rather less common thing. Some few may actually need the weather sealing, and some may prefer mid to long standard shooting style for general work or maybe they do lots of basketball or whatnot.

Mike wrote in post #12956233
Yes, I'm pretty sure that when I take my 85 lens off my 5DII and attach it to my 7D it still says 85mm on the lens.

What you are confusing focal length with is Field Of View.

true, but for wider lenses, FOV is usually the only relevant factor

One thing I would ask the OP is, do they think that Canon themselves, are doing a disservice to their customer? I mean, the 28-135 IS lens has been the default kit lens for a WHOLE BUNCH of Canon bodies, for a long time. Why would Canon do that?

Maybe it's because the UWA side of things, can be considered a bit of a specialty and thus someone starting with a lens that has about the 35mm FOV is actually a really good starting point. If they want wider, they'll buy a wider lens.

Todd Lambert wrote in post #12958031
One thing I would ask the OP is, do they think that Canon themselves, are doing a disservice to their customer? I mean, the 28-135 IS lens has been the default kit lens for a WHOLE BUNCH of Canon bodies, for a long time. Why would Canon do that?

Maybe it's because the UWA side of things, can be considered a bit of a specialty and thus someone starting with a lens that has about the 35mm FOV is actually a really good starting point. If they want wider, they'll buy a wider lens.

A lot of people knocked canon for that. They didn't seem to have a really cheap new wider kit with IS designed yet and just kept using the same one they have in FF rebels days as kit lens.

From a lens designer perspective:

Any lens design has a large number of compromises (between center and edge resolution, vignetting, weight, size, cost etc.). As a result, lens designs are targeted at specific sensor sizes, and may not be optimal for other sensor sizes.

What exactly may not be optimal if say using a FF designed lens on a crop sensor?

- Pixel center resolution may be lower (as crop cameras usually have higher pixel density), and/or
- FF frame lenses are big and heavy to keep vignetting under control, on FF. This is usually an overkill for crop cameras: you could shave off a lot of glass and get a much lighter (and perhaps cheaper) lens, but still get an acceptable vignetting, and/or
- More glass in FF lenses may also mean slower AF (as the moveable lens elements have more inertia),
- So a crop camera user may end up paying more for a heavier FF lens with a comparable, or even lower quality, compared to a good crop lens.

Please note my using italics to emphasize a typical situation. For some FF lenses this may not be true.

Todd Lambert wrote in post #12958031
... the 28-135 IS lens has been the default kit lens for a WHOLE BUNCH of Canon bodies, for a long time. Why would Canon do that?

Maybe it's because the UWA side of things, can be considered a bit of a specialty and thus someone starting with a lens that has about the 35mm FOV is actually a really good starting point. If they want wider, they'll buy a wider lens.

I only know from my couple years of experience but it seems to me that the cameras geared towards newer photographers seem to include the 18-55mm IS (and sometimes also the 55-250mm IS). Could it be that including the 28-135mm with their better bodies implies that a photographer at that higher level will probably also own a wide angle lens and a telephoto lens?

Moving up to the 60D, the kit typically includes the 18-200mm EFS lens and it's not until the 7D that Canon pairs it with the 28-135mm lens. The 5D II seems to be offered with the 24-105mm lens. I don't know if there's any great wisdom behind these pairings or if they are based primarily on supply and anticipated market acceptance.

pulsar123 wrote in post #12958245
From a lens designer perspective: ...

What exactly may not be optimal if say using a FF designed lens on a crop sensor?

You do realize that in the United States it is illegal to incite a riot?

Well, I think the best focal length for any newbie photographer is 50mm or 35mm. Those are standard focal lengths.

I believe Canon supplies an appropriate zoom lens that encompasses that range, as their kit lens. I mean, it'd be a bit off for Canon to offer a 10-22, since most new photographers tend to want to shoot things further away, more than they do up close (usually).