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Thread started 02 Sep 2011 (Friday) 11:38
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Why does it take years for new FF's, but entry level bodies are out every year?

 
davidc502
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Sep 02, 2011 17:26 |  #16

kf095 wrote in post #13041430 (external link)
Rebels feeds consumerism.
FF feeds professionalism.
Guess which "ism" is more common?

Rebels don't have additional AF points for aperture 2.8 and wider. 5D does.

I would love to see what the ratio on Canon 5Dmk2 sales are. I'd be willing to bet it's more consumerism than professionalism.

Have you seen all the mark2's on Ebay and Craigs List and here on POTN being sold by average joes? My guess would be 2 or 3 to 1.

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davidc502
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Sep 02, 2011 17:29 |  #17

alann wrote in post #13042463 (external link)
Not only do they sell many more. I would bet the farm that the product margins are much better

I would be willing to bet profit margins are smaller on the lower end dslr's, and much higher on the high end stuff including L Lenses.

Maybe it's a bet I would loose, but all of these dslr's are related (inside guts) more than we know.

David


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kcbrown
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Sep 02, 2011 20:39 |  #18

It takes years for FF cameras to come out because Canon is trying to protect their top of the line camera range, and it takes that long for a development to occur that will make it possible to release the new camera as a compelling upgrade while keeping it from encroaching on 1Ds territory.

Honestly, what can you put on a 5D camera that would significantly improve it? Only two things: drive speed, and autofocus. And the latter is much more important than the former.

So Canon improves the only thing that can be improved enough to make a compelling upgrade, but not enough to significantly improve the camera: the sensor. That takes a lot of time.

My opinion is that Canon believes that if they put a real autofocus system on the 5D, it would eliminate a lot of sales of their 1Ds (full frame 1D) line. I happen to believe that their thinking is rubbish, that a 5D with a pro-grade autofocus system would sell like hotcakes, greatly more than offsetting any loss of interest in the 1Ds series. But Canon is run by a bunch of short-sighted idiot marketing types, who think this (external link) is what makes for an exciting announcement.


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Canonswhitelensesrule
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Sep 02, 2011 22:09 |  #19

Nevermind about the 5D III...what about the 1Ds Mk IV?

Five D Schmive D...1D/1Ds bodies rule!!


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cassidyphuey
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Sep 02, 2011 22:25 |  #20

Another thing is competition. Why would Canon need to push out a FF camera every year if Nikon doesn't? Now if Nikon pushed out a Full Frame camera out every 6 months which prices cheaper than any Canon's equivalent, then you'd see a whole lot more FF.




  
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Saint728
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Sep 02, 2011 23:53 |  #21

I'm glad Canon doesn't release a new FF every year. Not many can afford a $7000-$8000 body every year. On the other hand I think Canon should come out with a new 5D series at least every other year.

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amfoto1
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Sep 03, 2011 00:06 |  #22

Did my 5DII stop working? Just wondering. ;)

Actually, sometimes I miss the good/bad old days of film. I used cameras for ten years of more, typically. I still have cameras from the 1970s that are perfectly usable... the film has been updated in the meantime, and I've upgraded lenses in some cases. So, a familiar "old friend" of a camera is still as capable as ever. Heck, I bet some folks less serious about their shooting only owned one film SLR in their lifetime. AFAIK, my Dad used the same pair of Leicas from the late 1950s until he stopped shooting at all (and gave the cameras and lenses to me).

Yes, 5DII isn't fitted with "cutting edge" auto focus by any means. But it still does the job pretty darned well. Much of the stuff that comes out on the newer models now is just bells and whistles, niceties instead of necessities.

I'd love it if 5DIII had a little better AF, perhaps an articulated LCD screen, and a few other things. It would be cool if Canon incorporated some of the software tweaks that Magic Lantern has come up with (personally, expanded bracketing and focus stacking bracketing are things that interest me the most). But I really don't see huge need to change sensor/processor or frame rates. Metering is pretty good, too... though I still miss my EOS-3's spot metering linked to the active AF point.

For a while digital imaging technology was leaping ahead very fast. Now the "basic stuff" isn't changing all that much. It's the add-ons such as wireless flash, video, etc. that are being "upgraded" these days... Many of those things I really don't need, personally, or would rather add with a separate module.

5DIII will really have to blow me away with some surprising features, to get me to upgrade very quickly, so long as my Mark II keeps working properly.


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LudwigVB
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Sep 03, 2011 02:47 |  #23

kcbrown wrote in post #13043374 (external link)
. . . . But Canon is run by a bunch of short-sighted idiot marketing types . . .

That is a tautology. What other marketing types are there? :lol:




  
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Sep 03, 2011 03:54 |  #24

I think those who invest in a 5D mk II is less likely to upgrade their gear than someone who's buying a 600D or whatever. So if Canon decides on a 3 year upgrade cycle for their higher end full frame, so be it. I've written off my 5D's in three years, so I'm ready to replace them now.


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jonneymendoza
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Sep 03, 2011 04:35 |  #25

cassidyphuey wrote in post #13043730 (external link)
Another thing is competition. Why would Canon need to push out a FF camera every year if Nikon doesn't? Now if Nikon pushed out a Full Frame camera out every 6 months which prices cheaper than any Canon's equivalent, then you'd see a whole lot more FF.

Diddnt Nikon just announced a new FF coming out soon plus a mirrorless dslr?

The thing is, when i do buy a FF body. i doubt i will upgrade again for a very long time


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Sep 03, 2011 04:58 |  #26

none of these words are sexy ....

try cost of BOM and yield. Plus current sales.

The Cost of the BOM to make a rebel is pretty low compared to full frame camera.
Add the yield for smaller sensor is better - more sensors per wafer = lower cost of production.

In FF, Canon will have to design a new sensor or 2. Then make it manufacturable and profitable.
Yield for new large sensors are not great.

Lets not forget the components/software required to operate said new sensor ... takes time to develop and flush out the system.

Other: A new sensor may also require new manufacturing processes. This may require a new manufacturing line.

Throw in a little earthquake/tsunami action ... all makes for an interesting future.


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Sep 03, 2011 05:23 |  #27

Razeus wrote in post #13041216 (external link)
5D II needs an update.

What's wrong with the 5D2?




  
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benesotor
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Sep 03, 2011 06:25 |  #28

davidc502 wrote in post #13042639 (external link)
I would love to see what the ratio on Canon 5Dmk2 sales are. I'd be willing to bet it's more consumerism than professionalism.

Have you seen all the mark2's on Ebay and Craigs List and here on POTN being sold by average joes? My guess would be 2 or 3 to 1.

Regards,

David

Well I'm not sure what Canon's markup is, but it's a difficult camera to sell.

When I worked at a high-street camera store, we would loose £50 on every 7D or 5D sold. The only way to make money with it is to sell lenses/accessories.
Basically, if somebody wanted just a 7D and a kit lens, we would advise them to go somewhere else, or buy a rebel.




  
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DAMphyne
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Sep 03, 2011 06:56 |  #29

You guys seem 'Caught up in the hype' :)

My D30 still takes great pics, remember, it's not the equipment that customers buy.


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pwm2
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Sep 03, 2011 07:26 |  #30

davidc502 wrote in post #13042653 (external link)
I would be willing to bet profit margins are smaller on the lower end dslr's, and much higher on the high end stuff including L Lenses.

Maybe it's a bet I would loose, but all of these dslr's are related (inside guts) more than we know.

David

Yes, the inside of these cameras/lenses are very much related.

But the R&D costs are involved in the introduction of the new high-end gear.

So they have high research/development costs, because they are breaking new ground.
And they have new production costs, because they require newly created production methods.
And they have high marketing costs, because the marketing material will only cover some few sales.

For the rebels, you do pick up existing technology. The R&D part is just to figure out how the experiences from the high-end models can be taken advantage of to modify the technology for lower production costs and to reduce the amount of support costs. There is no new research - just cost-cutting optimizations.

With known production techniques, it's also way easier to produce the Rebels. In some case, because of improved processes. In some cases because of less requirements for precision.

And lots of the marketing costs will be taken by the companies who sells the rebels, while Canon just supplies the electronic material to use.

In some situations - especially if cornered by the competition - you can have manufacturers being forced to sell some of their high-end stuff at cost, i.e. without any margin at all (or maybe even at loss) just to keep the high-profile customers while fighting to get a new, competitive, product on the market. After all - lots of people buy Rebels because they see lots of white lenses around Wimbledon and other large media events. If the professionals are using Canon, then they figure that they must be doing the right thing to pick up a Canon at the local Media Markt - even if it's a camera in the bottom-most tier, and with the cheapest lens.

For the camera bodies, I don't think the world is large enough to make it economical to release high-end bodies at a higher pace. You can't double the R&D staff and expect the development times to be cut in half. Next thing - you don't want to send out broken gear. How fun was it with the "blue dot" focus issues?

As already noted by other people, it really doesn't take much work to create a new model at the lower end. It's a lot of cut-and-paste to bring in some minor functional changes, while at the same time figure out a couple of design changes. All just to force huge batches of cameras through the retail chains while constantly create interest in the new models.


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