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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Weddings & Other Family Events Talk 
Thread started 04 Sep 2011 (Sunday) 05:52
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Shutter Speed & Focal Length

 
pwm2
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Sep 04, 2011 15:17 |  #16

css7493 wrote in post #13049676 (external link)
if I remember the general rule is 1/(1.5*focal length), so @ 200mm, 1/300 for an almost guranteed crisp shot. That being said . . . just practice practice practice and make your own rules, and decide your own tolerances for quality, its a give and take.

There are no "real" general rule. Your rule is just the slight adaptation of the rule to take into account the smaller sensors of a APS-C "crop-factor" sensor. With a P&S camera (or if you manually crop the image or intend to make large prints) you need a correspondingly larger multiplying factor. This besides the "steady hand" factor. And it quickly breaks down in case of non-steady subjects - more so the closer and/or faster the moving subject is.


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umphotography
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Sep 04, 2011 15:53 |  #17

pwm2 wrote in post #13050343 (external link)
There are no "real" general rule. Your rule is just the slight adaptation of the rule to take into account the smaller sensors of a APS-C "crop-factor" sensor. With a P&S camera (or if you manually crop the image or intend to make large prints) you need a correspondingly larger multiplying factor. This besides the "steady hand" factor. And it quickly breaks down in case of non-steady subjects - more so the closer and/or faster the moving subject is.

Have to differ here--steady hand does not always hold true, it might help

Everyone is dancing around the Focal Legnth Reciprocal Rule

Basically what they are saying about this rule that if your focal legnth is 60mm a person can safely handhold with a shutter speed of 1/60. This rule has been around since i was in high school and holds true today. With the advent of IS lens, you can cheat this a lot. As mentioned, I can hand hold my 70-200 and 1/30 all day long and get completely sharp images. Cant do that with my 135L where this rule plays right into the equations.

You have to know what the rule is telling you and you have to apply it to what you are using. My canon 17-55 is could be handheld at 1/20 and get sharp images 90% of the time. My 50mm can hand hold around 1/30 and i start to get into trouble.

Here is the information on this rule

http://singleservingph​oto.com …l-length-reciprocal-rule/ (external link)


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tim
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Sep 04, 2011 16:11 |  #18

I can't believe how poor the advice from most people is in this thread. The reciprocal rule is only a rule of thumb, and it applies to lenses without IS/VR. With IS/VR the limiting factor is usually around 1/20th for stationary subjects, and then it just comes to how still your subject is.

This isn't a wedding photography subject, this is photography 101.


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dariussutherland
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Sep 04, 2011 16:27 as a reply to  @ tim's post |  #19

Well. I basically base everything around that rule, but rules are made to be broken.

With my 24-105 i'll go down to about 1/60th maybe further, but the subject and myself will have to be very till.

So your saying at full focal length on a 70-200 lens you can go down to 1/20th. I'd like to see the sharpness and movement on that...


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pwm2
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Sep 04, 2011 16:44 |  #20

umphotography wrote in post #13050469 (external link)
Have to differ here--steady hand does not always hold true, it might help

Everyone is dancing around the Focal Legnth Reciprocal Rule

Basically what they are saying about this rule that if your focal legnth is 60mm a person can safely handhold with a shutter speed of 1/60. This rule has been around since i was in high school and holds true today. With the advent of IS lens, you can cheat this a lot. As mentioned, I can hand hold my 70-200 and 1/30 all day long and get completely sharp images. Cant do that with my 135L where this rule plays right into the equations.

You have to know what the rule is telling you and you have to apply it to what you are using. My canon 17-55 is could be handheld at 1/20 and get sharp images 90% of the time. My 50mm can hand hold around 1/30 and i start to get into trouble.

Here is the information on this rule

http://singleservingph​oto.com …l-length-reciprocal-rule/ (external link)

Not to be critical, but did you read the link you posted? Or exactly what is it you are objecting to, that made you feel a need for "correcting us" with the link?

It says: "is to give you an idea of whether a photograph will come out blurry if you’re holding the camera in your hand". The critical thing here is "an idea".

It also says: "but as I mentioned before, it’s just a guideline."

And it says: "There is no substitute for experience in this case."

And it also contains that information about how you must adjust for the "crop-factor" of 10D, 20D, ...

And it says: "If your subject is moving, the reciprocal rule doesn’t help you too much."

And further: "People with a lot of dexterity have been able to take incredibly crisp images of moving subjects at long focal lengths without tripods simply because they are like photographic snipers."

And when it gets to IS, your link drops in a "Thanks to tukangmoto (external link) for reminding me about these features!"

There is nothing really wrong with your linked article. It's just that it does not contain any information that is contradicting what I have already posted.

What it does miss, is that the multiplication factor must be upgraded if you manually crop the photos, since that is changing the world-to-print magnification factor. And that this general rule is aimed at "standard sized" prints. If you do large prints but intends people to look closer at the prints (so obviously not banners on bus stops, but fine art on museum walls) then you must upgrade your multiplication factor further.

The 1/f rule will not give perfectly sharp images. It is a guidance rule where your photos - under normal use - will seem perfectly sharp. So it is not a rule covering pixel-peeping. There wasn't even any pixels when the rule was first put in print.

And with static objects, where we are only talking about hand shake and not subject movements, then there is a huge difference between people. Their dexterity and their camera-holding technique.

1/f is a good start figure. It is a very old equation from when people did not have instant feedback. Following this rule, people could buy their first camera and go on vacation and get decent pictures. But with the feedback available in the system, we can learn ourselves how good we are, and adapt this rule. I'm a pretty good "sniper" so I can go way better even without an IS lens - just as long as we have a static subject.

The thing is that the 1/f rule is something you can manage quite well while holding the camera in your hands. When you have the ability to bring in the camera and nest it towards your body, you can gain a lot of extra stability because you are short-circuiting the quick shake you have in your hands but instead switching in the slower wobble you have in your body.

Obviously, a generic rule can't take into account such optimizations. So while the rule is very old, it is intended as just a generic starter point.

From what you are trying to say:

You have to know what the rule is telling you and you have to apply it to what you are using. My canon 17-55 is could be handheld at 1/20 and get sharp images 90% of the time. My 50mm can hand hold around 1/30 and i start to get into trouble.

I somehow get the feeling that you think I claim that the focal length doesn't matter. Of course it does. It's just that in real life, it isn't 1/f. It's (1/f*k) where k must be adapted for photographer (can be one or two stops for some people) and for sensor size (1.6 for APS-C) and for manual crop and for potential large-print "fine arts" use.

From experience, I normally count myself a factor 2. So without IS and with static subject, I strive for 1/2f with a full-frame camera and 1/3f with APS-C. I.e. at 70mm that would then be 1/140 with FF and 1/210 with APS-C.

As soon as the subject moves, this goes all down the drain. Even if I have a fixed 100mm focal length, it will matter if the moving subject is 1m or 5m away (with a full factor 5 difference in sensor pixels traversed per second) and of course in the speed of the subject, or if the subject is moving across the image or is changing the distance.

And at all times, it will matter how I print, i.e. how many pixels of fuzz will be visible? The 1/f rule will not keep the camera shake to less than one sensor pixel, since such small camera shake doesn't really matter for a normal print. And for a film camera with low-ISO film, you don't even have any fixed pixel sizes to debate when setting the limit for "shake-free".


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umphotography
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Sep 05, 2011 10:38 as a reply to  @ pwm2's post |  #21

Relax tiger. I wasnt questioning your ability.experience or knowledge. Just trying to point out that there was in fact a basic rule thats been around forever. Yes i read it and i thought that it mightmake things perfectly clear about the subject we are all talking about. Rules are ment to be broken, but you should know the starting point. Thats all i was trying to get across and definately didnt mean to ruffel any feathers.:cool:


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pwm2
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Sep 05, 2011 11:16 |  #22

umphotography wrote in post #13053596 (external link)
Relax tiger. I wasnt questioning your ability.experience or knowledge. Just trying to point out that there was in fact a basic rule thats been around forever. Yes i read it and i thought that it mightmake things perfectly clear about the subject we are all talking about. Rules are ment to be broken, but you should know the starting point. Thats all i was trying to get across and definately didnt mean to ruffel any feathers.:cool:

It's just that the rule is old and "safe" and based on standard-sized uncropped prints with the fov from 35mm film. And some people tends to take this as a "hard and absolute" rule, instead of investigating.


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Sep 05, 2011 17:43 |  #23

If you 70-200 has IS you are good down to 1/15 sec at 70mm, 1/25 at 200 (at a push).
I wouldn't recommend going slower than 1/40 for anything that has a pulse.
I have used the mkII 70-200 at 1/15 at 200. It's very good.


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Shutter Speed & Focal Length
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