Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 24 Sep 2011 (Saturday) 09:48
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Why go full frame?

 
stsva
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,360 posts
Gallery: 45 photos
Likes: 285
Joined Mar 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
     
Sep 29, 2011 07:35 |  #256

Higgs Boson wrote in post #13180944 (external link)
I KNOW the difference is easily visible. So do MANY other people here who have or do use both and can see both side by side. If you have the ability to do so, please do, yourself, in Lightroom or similar, not an 800X600 file posted here.

The 7D looks like a Monet and the 5D looks like a photograph.

Weren't you the guy who was complaining about too much anecdotal opinion and not enough objective evidence? Perhaps I've confused you with someone else. ;)


Some Canon stuff and a little bit of Yongnuo.
http://www.pbase.com/s​tsva/profile (external link)
Member of the GIYF
Club and
HAMSTTR
٩ Breeders Club https://photography-on-the.net …=744235&highlig​ht=hamsttr Join today!
Image Editing OK

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
stsva
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,360 posts
Gallery: 45 photos
Likes: 285
Joined Mar 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
     
Sep 29, 2011 07:37 |  #257

Tendy wrote in post #13181182 (external link)
Well for a walkbout lens (nice phrase that!) I have a 19-35 (30-50 equiv)

I'm very happy with my 15-85 for that purpose (24-136 equivalent). I have the "nifty-fifty," but don't really use it very much.


Some Canon stuff and a little bit of Yongnuo.
http://www.pbase.com/s​tsva/profile (external link)
Member of the GIYF
Club and
HAMSTTR
٩ Breeders Club https://photography-on-the.net …=744235&highlig​ht=hamsttr Join today!
Image Editing OK

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Higgs ­ Boson
Goldmember
1,958 posts
Likes: 4
Joined Jan 2011
Location: Texas Hill Country
     
Sep 29, 2011 07:38 |  #258

stsva wrote in post #13181201 (external link)
Weren't you the guy who was complaining about too much opinion and not enough objective evidence? Perhaps I've confused you with someone else. ;)

Yes. You are not confused. You would like me to post MORE evidence??? There sure is a lot out there but it doesn't seem to matter.

So let's see who has a stronger opinion! ;)

I don't see the point in continuing to post in this thread. Lol, denial ain't just a river in Asia, is it?


A9 | 25 | 55 | 85 | 90 | 135

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
stsva
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,360 posts
Gallery: 45 photos
Likes: 285
Joined Mar 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
     
Sep 29, 2011 07:43 |  #259

Higgs Boson wrote in post #13181215 (external link)
Yes. You are not confused. You would like me to post MORE evidence??? There sure is a lot out there but it doesn't seem to matter.

So let's see who has a stronger opinion! ;)

I don't see the point in continuing to post in this thread. Lol, denial ain't just a river in Asia, is it?

Denial of what, one might ask. In my opinion, current full frame cameras are better (in terms of effectiveness and efficiency) than current crop cameras for certain purposes under certain conditions, equivalent to current crop cameras for certain purposes under certain conditions, and inferior to current crop cameras for certain purposes under certain conditions. It's all relative, especially since some of the advantages/disadvantag​es relate to the camera "system" rather than the sensor in isolation.


Some Canon stuff and a little bit of Yongnuo.
http://www.pbase.com/s​tsva/profile (external link)
Member of the GIYF
Club and
HAMSTTR
٩ Breeders Club https://photography-on-the.net …=744235&highlig​ht=hamsttr Join today!
Image Editing OK

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
kcbrown
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,384 posts
Likes: 2
Joined Mar 2007
Location: Silicon Valley
     
Sep 29, 2011 08:01 |  #260

rhys216 wrote in post #13181181 (external link)
I still think the 5D2 would be clearly sharper in terms on MTF figures even without a mega pixel advantage (the lens is clearly the limiting factor), as even with an extremely sharp lens at it's sharpest setting the 5Dii is producing 40ish% better MTF numbers with only a 15% mega pixel advantage.

Look, dpreview.com posts up 100% crops of the resolution test images they use to determine the resolution of the cameras. You can look at them yourself. They show you exactly what the potential of the camera is. They're not using some special, magic, unobtainable lens, they're using the Canon 50 f/1.4 on the 7D and, I think, the 85 f/1.8 on the 5D. Or, at least, that's what they used to use as I recall.

However, I'm not saying there will be as much of an appreciable difference between the two in the real world in such a case, as the image will be very sharp in both cases and probably difficult to tell the two apart, but it would make a noticeable difference if your shooting a lens or using an aperture that isn't extremely sharp.

And that's the point!! The claim has been that full frame gives you a very visible improvement in sharpness and detail retention, even after you eliminate the resolution difference. And for that, I call BS. Yes, you're right, if the glass you're using on the crop camera isn't up to the task then clearly the full frame camera will have an obvious advantage, and it'll be easy to see. I have never disputed that. The crop camera is going to be more demanding of the resolving power of the glass. I have always said this.

But if you put good glass on the crop camera, it will perform, and it'll do so in such a way that it'll be difficult to tell the resulting images apart. Ben Jacobsen illustrated this quite nicely in his 7D vs 5D2 landscape comparison thread here.

You people who claim there's such a major difference between the two and who claim that the only people who don't see it are people who don't have extensive experience with both are refusing to listen, plain and simple. People like Ben Jacobsen have the very experience you claim is necessary, and they say that there is precious little difference between the two. They've posted like versus like examples illustrating just how close the results really are.


Glass matters, a lot. There's no question about that. That's not the point. The point is that if you have good glass on your crop camera then you will get results that come surprisingly close to the results you'll get from full frame. The only major exceptions are depth of field and noise. For those, full frame unquestionably has the advantage. For high ISO, where you're willing to use the lens wide open, full frame also unquestionably has the advantage, but only if you're willing to open your lens up all the way. For everything else, the full frame advantage is minor. It's there, yes, but it's not substantial unless you're not using sharp glass on the crop side of the equation.


One more thing: you must keep in mind that the 7D has a green channel imbalance that most RAW processors deal with by averaging the green channels together. This results in loss of detail. If you're going to properly compare the potential of the camera, you have to use a RAW processor that does not do this. Lightroom is apparently one such RAW processor (and, by extension, ACR 6.x). The T2i, T3i, and 60D are, as far as I know, free from that defect (Daniel Browning would be able to answer that question more adequately), but I don't know if most RAW processors treat them any differently than they do the 7D.


"There are some things that money can't buy, but they aren't Ls and aren't worth having" -- Shooter-boy
Canon: 2 x 7D, Sigma 17-50 f/2.8 OS, 55-250 IS, Sigma 8-16, 24-105L, Sigma 50/1.4, other assorted primes, and a 430EX.
Nikon: D750, D600, 24-85 VR, 50 f/1.8G, 85 f/1.8G, Tamron 24-70 VC, Tamron 70-300 VC.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Higgs ­ Boson
Goldmember
1,958 posts
Likes: 4
Joined Jan 2011
Location: Texas Hill Country
     
Sep 29, 2011 08:32 |  #261

stsva wrote in post #13181225 (external link)
Denial of what, one might ask. In my opinion, current full frame cameras are better (in terms of effectiveness and efficiency) than current crop cameras for certain purposes under certain conditions, equivalent to current crop cameras for certain purposes under certain conditions, and inferior to current crop cameras for certain purposes under certain conditions. It's all relative, especially since some of the advantages/disadvantag​es relate to the camera "system" rather than the sensor in isolation.

this thread asks about full frame, not 5D vs 7D or likewise. the full frame sensor is not what prevents the 5DII from having a better AF system or faster FPS. I think you are comparing apples and oranges.

a FULL FRAME (35mm) sensor makes a better image than a 1.6 sensor under ALL conditions. Same lens, same light, etc. Stop applying "conditions" to destabilize the comparison.

with that said, your conditional statements apply to the CURRENT release of CANON cameras only. And prosumer models at that. Apples and oranges comparing a camera "system" to a sensor.

as I have stated, maybe in a different thread, let's see what the next round of releases brings.....and revisit.


A9 | 25 | 55 | 85 | 90 | 135

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
stsva
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,360 posts
Gallery: 45 photos
Likes: 285
Joined Mar 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
     
Sep 29, 2011 08:45 |  #262

Higgs Boson wrote in post #13181371 (external link)
this thread asks about full frame, not 5D vs 7D or likewise. the full frame sensor is not what prevents the 5DII from having a better AF system or faster FPS. I think you are comparing apples and oranges.

a FULL FRAME (35mm) sensor makes a better image than a 1.6 sensor under ALL conditions. Same lens, same light, etc. Stop applying "conditions" to destabilize the comparison.

with that said, your conditional statements apply to the CURRENT release of CANON cameras only. And prosumer models at that. Apples and oranges comparing a camera "system" to a sensor.

as I have stated, maybe in a different thread, let's see what the next round of releases brings.....and revisit.

People buy cameras, not sensors. You make some very questionable assumptions to reach an essentially absurd conclusion, that all full frame sensors can achieve a better image than all crop sensors, regardless of sensor generation or technology or the camera system in which the sensor is actually used, and without regard to actual shooting purpose and conditions. Even in terms of pixel-level image quality, your conclusion is invalid if you compare the original generation of full frame sensors to the current generation of crop sensors. As I said before, everything is relative. Focusing on a single criterion (I think yours is pixel-level image quality; perhaps I'm wrong) without consideration of other relevant factors, and then generalizing the result as you've done above, is of absolutely no value.

Your position is somewhat similar to the fellow who asserts that his 500 horsepower car is, under all conditions, better than a 200 horsepower car. He's obviously correct if horsepower is the only criterion for comparison; his assertion is obviously absurd if gas mileage is taken into account.


Some Canon stuff and a little bit of Yongnuo.
http://www.pbase.com/s​tsva/profile (external link)
Member of the GIYF
Club and
HAMSTTR
٩ Breeders Club https://photography-on-the.net …=744235&highlig​ht=hamsttr Join today!
Image Editing OK

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
bobbyz
Cream of the Crop
20,505 posts
Likes: 3436
Joined Nov 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA
     
Sep 29, 2011 08:51 |  #263

kcbrown wrote in post #13181261 (external link)
Glass matters, a lot. There's no question about that. That's not the point. The point is that if you have good glass on your crop camera then you will get results that come surprisingly close to the results you'll get from full frame. The only major exceptions are depth of field and noise. For those, full frame unquestionably has the advantage. For high ISO, where you're willing to use the lens wide open, full frame also unquestionably has the advantage, but only if you're willing to open your lens up all the way. For everything else, the full frame advantage is minor. It's there, yes, but it's not substantial unless you're not using sharp glass on the crop side of the equation.

very good points.


Fuji XT-1, 18-55mm
Sony A7rIV, , Tamron 28-200mm, Sigma 40mm f1.4 Art FE, Sony 85mm f1.8 FE, Sigma 105mm f1.4 Art FE
Fuji GFX50s, 23mm f4, 32-64mm, 45mm f2.8, 110mm f2, 120mm f4 macro
Canon 24mm TSE-II, 85mm f1.2 L II, 90mm TSE-II Macro, 300mm f2.8 IS I

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Higgs ­ Boson
Goldmember
1,958 posts
Likes: 4
Joined Jan 2011
Location: Texas Hill Country
     
Sep 29, 2011 08:59 |  #264

stsva wrote in post #13181418 (external link)
People buy cameras, not sensors. You make some very questionable assumptions to reach an essentially absurd conclusion, that all full frame sensors can achieve a better image than all crop sensors, regardless of sensor generation or technology or the camera system in which the sensor is actually used, and without regard to actual shooting purpose and conditions. Even in terms of pixel-level image quality, your conclusion is invalid if you compare the original generation of full frame sensors to the current generation of crop sensors. As I said before, everything is relative. Focusing on a single criterion (I think yours is pixel-level image quality; perhaps I'm wrong) without consideration of other relevant factors, and then generalizing the result as you've done above, is of absolutely no value.

Sorry, check my user name.
"All else equal" is the preface to my statements. I do not presume we need to enter into a conversation regarding the merits of common sense....

I agree that there are other factors when buying a camera but I prefer to stay on topic. Again, the limits of Canon full frame cameras are not due to full frame itself. More due to the fact that the cameras are older than the new crops out right now. Like I said, let's wait and see if Canon releases something meaningful with a 5DIII (or whatever).

And for the record, I have an 850 HP Z06 that gets 28-30 MPG hwy. It can be done and it IS better than a 6 banger that gets 28 MPG....lol. Let's not talk cars. Cars are my primary business. <-- in response to your ninja edit car analogy that did not make my quote.


A9 | 25 | 55 | 85 | 90 | 135

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
stsva
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,360 posts
Gallery: 45 photos
Likes: 285
Joined Mar 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
     
Sep 29, 2011 09:02 |  #265

Higgs Boson wrote in post #13181500 (external link)
Sorry, check my user name.
"All else equal" is the preface to my statements. I do not presume we need to enter into a conversation regarding the merits of common sense....

I agree that there are other factors when buying a camera but I prefer to stay on topic. Again, the limits of Canon full frame cameras are not due to full frame itself. More due to the fact that the cameras are older than the new crops out right now. Like I said, let's wait and see if Canon releases something meaningful with a 5DIII (or whatever).

The topic was whether the OP should buy full frame. All of the factors I and others have mentioned are relevant to that question. The abstract merits of a full frame sensor are irrelevant to that question unless considered within the context of the camera system through which that sensor is actually available and the shooting conditions under which it's used.


Some Canon stuff and a little bit of Yongnuo.
http://www.pbase.com/s​tsva/profile (external link)
Member of the GIYF
Club and
HAMSTTR
٩ Breeders Club https://photography-on-the.net …=744235&highlig​ht=hamsttr Join today!
Image Editing OK

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Higgs ­ Boson
Goldmember
1,958 posts
Likes: 4
Joined Jan 2011
Location: Texas Hill Country
     
Sep 29, 2011 09:05 |  #266

stsva wrote in post #13181513 (external link)
The topic was whether the OP should buy full frame. All of the factors I and others have mentioned are relevant to that question. The abstract merits of a full frame sensor are irrelevant unless considered within the context of the camera system through which that sensor is actually available and the shooting conditions under which it's used.

there are many threads comparing cameras. this isn't one of them. anyways, now we are both being babies.

cheers. bye.


A9 | 25 | 55 | 85 | 90 | 135

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
ktownhero
Senior Member
313 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Apr 2011
     
Sep 29, 2011 09:07 |  #267

picturecrazy wrote in post #13177912 (external link)
If you have been reading rhys' posts, the DIFFERENCES he notes between the croppers and FF are being presented by him as DEFICIENCIES rather than differences. I'm saying it's up to the shooter's needs as to whether they are deficiencies or not. He presents SHARPNESS as the ultimate measure of sensor comparison. I'm just saying that he should open his mind and realize that there are many other factors to make excellent images. Having a SHARP image with thin DOF is one way of a billion to make a quality image, just as you pointed out. Why are you getting on my back if we're saying the same thing?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA​HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA​HAHAHA!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Have you read the Camera forum lately for the last 5 years? It's full of some of the most biased, unscientific blanket statements of how inferior crop is to FF, or how your problems would disappear if you upgrade to FF, or how you should upgrade to FF and never look back. And many of these people are taking pictures of their cat, and their kids at the park. I'm sorry, FF doesn't help these people, but they buy 'em because people are constantly saying, "it's the best" without really knowing if or why it is, FOR THEIR PURPOSES.

I don't know why people are so sensitive to having a two sided discussion instead of an all-agreeing circle jerk. It's like having a different viewpoint and healthy debate automatically makes me a hater.

Wow. This response to what I wrote is completely out of line. It has nothing to do with having a "different point of view" and there's nothing "healthy" about your method of debate (which is a misuse of the word). A few months ago I got into a discussion with you and swore I would just avoid you in the future, I should have stuck to that gut instinct. You're not a helpful or enjoyable person to have a "discussion" with, as much as you may try to delude yourself otherwise.

The funniest part is that I wasn't even providing my opinion on the subject, even though your response leaps to conclusions about what you think my opinion may be. All I was pointing out was that it is invalid logic to assume that just because somebody feels that FF has an IQ advantage, that they also think crop sensors are in any way inadequate. Hence why I said you are putting words in people's mouths.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
kf095
Out buying Wheaties
Avatar
6,802 posts
Gallery: 14 photos
Likes: 446
Joined Dec 2009
Location: Canada, Ontario, Milton
     
Sep 29, 2011 09:17 |  #268

stsva wrote in post #13181418 (external link)
People buy cameras, not sensors...

Most of them do. Most of them wants new cameras, because they think it is way more better compare to few years old ones. Some of them think about cameras as cars, most think it is same as their mobile phones and processors.
And most of them don't even knew it has any sensor and mirrors inside.
1% or less from them who is buying cameras reading POTN. And here it is slightly different. Some of us purchased camera based on the sensor size. But it doesn't mean we didn't went through the first stage - buying cameras, not sensors.


Old Site (external link). M-E and ME blog (external link). Film Flickr (external link). my DigitaL and AnaLog Gear.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
ktownhero
Senior Member
313 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Apr 2011
     
Sep 29, 2011 09:30 |  #269

"People buy cameras, not sensors...."

That's like saying, "people buy cars, not engines."




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
stsva
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
6,360 posts
Gallery: 45 photos
Likes: 285
Joined Mar 2009
Location: Northern Virginia
     
Sep 29, 2011 09:35 |  #270

ktownhero wrote in post #13181663 (external link)
"People buy cameras, not sensors...."

That's like saying, "people buy cars, not engines."

Yup, it sure is. :cool:


Some Canon stuff and a little bit of Yongnuo.
http://www.pbase.com/s​tsva/profile (external link)
Member of the GIYF
Club and
HAMSTTR
٩ Breeders Club https://photography-on-the.net …=744235&highlig​ht=hamsttr Join today!
Image Editing OK

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

46,727 views & 0 likes for this thread
Why go full frame?
FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is lupecia
843 guests, 264 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.