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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 14 Nov 2011 (Monday) 14:21
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Am I Crazy for wanting a 7D

 
r34p3rex
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Nov 15, 2011 11:34 |  #61

I'd recommend starting off on a used 40/50D or a refurb T2i (if you want video). After learning everything, you'll be able to resell the body for practically what you paid for it and then you can splurge on a 7D.

The learning curve on the rebel series is much lower than on a xxD or xD body


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tats
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Nov 15, 2011 11:41 |  #62

r34p3rex wrote in post #13402915 (external link)
I'd recommend starting off on a used 40/50D or a refurb T2i (if you want video). After learning everything, you'll be able to resell the body for practically what you paid for it and then you can splurge on a 7D.

The learning curve on the rebel series is much lower than on a xxD or xD body

I agree with the second part of that post but going through the for sale threads and my own experience selling an XSI only the very latest rebel models hold their value. Once a newwer one comes out, which is much more often with with 40,50,60 models their price takes a decent hit.

If you think it will take you less than a year or even a year and a half to learn then I think just go for the one you want. My xsi was 2.5 years old, had 8k clicks on it in mint condition and people were offering me $250.

Op - Read the manual, get a book and start making mistakes and asking questions and you should be more than fine - grab the 7D if that is what you want


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Vampire.Lestat
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Nov 15, 2011 11:42 |  #63

TeleFragger wrote in post #13402614 (external link)
wow your last few posts.. i think you are suggesting a 60d.. huh.. :lol:

messin with ya...

yes i agree.. a 60d can do just fine if the OP's needs are met and will not be challenged..


i bought my camera a year ago.. i went with the t2i as my boss went with the t1i... i knew the t3i/60d were coming out but didnt want to wait for them....
i have outgrew my t2i... i dont want a bigger, bulkier camera... however i need the 8fps.. yes 5.3 could do somewhat.. but 8fps is still 2.7 more....

if i could do it over again and know then what i know now.. i would have bumped up the extra cash for the 7d... im a hobbyist and want this camera to last.. but i have a few occasions where i have missed opportunities.. so now i will have to come up with money, and sell off my t2i to be able to get the 7d and settle in..

If the OP will never do sports or things requiring the 8fps.. id say yes 60d would do nicely...

just my opinion

it is really a good lesson for all the OPs, you will never know what level of camera you really want until you get one first. I am not sure about the situation and attitudes people keep here. I am a chinese, people in china will always go for a full-frame camera at last especially the amateurs(if they can afford). and many of them regret that they have spent too much on crop-frame cameras. my suggestion is very clear: if you swear that you will never change the crop-sensor into full size,go for 7D. if you are not sure or even don't know what you want, 60D is suitable cause it is good for 90% of situation in your daily life and also it is really a nice camera, you can learn every basic knowledge from that and get good expecience. when you wanna update, you can keep it as your standby camera or sell it, it is not so expensive as 7D. if anyone wanna see some samples of 60D's performance, visit my Flickr.

thank you all


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Lacks_focus
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Nov 15, 2011 11:55 |  #64

John from PA wrote in post #13398879 (external link)
All the cameras you mention are "crop sensor" as opposed to "full frame sensor". What this means is if for example you chose a lens labeled 50mm, it will yield an effective field of view of about 50 x 1.6 or 80mm. The 1.6 is termed the crop factor. A 28-105mm lens will effectively be a 45mm to 168mm zoom on the 7D or 60D. Put it on al old 35mm film camera, or something with a full frame sensor and it is the 28-105mm as labeled. So what you might think is a normal lens, in terms of the old 35mm film days, is really a short telephoto. You would have to move to a something like a 5D to get a full frame sensor and that would be a tremendous increase in price. You need to walk before you can run...

And all this makes absolutely NO difference to the user unless they have recent and extensive time behind a 35MM format camera choosing lens focal lengths for a given situation based on that format. Otherwise, it just confuses things. Pick a lens that works for the format and the use and move along. If you own a 35MM format camera and a 1.6 crop camera and routinely swap between them, then there may be some merit to worrying about crop conversion factors and such.

If you can afford it, get the 7D and learn to use it. Buying lower spec T3i, 40D, 50D and whatever else may be recommended to “ease you into it” will just have you spending more money VERY SOON upgrading to the 7D anyway. Just cut the progression and get what you want now. If your photos aren’t what you expect, you’ll know that your skill level needs to improve rather than your equipment failing you… Getting the 7D now will have you honestly trying to improve (as needed), the other option may have you chasing never ending equipment upgrades.


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hollis_f
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Nov 15, 2011 12:25 |  #65

amfoto1 wrote in post #13402544 (external link)
7D is claimed to have 8 fps, but in fact it often has to slow down anyway, to allow time for metering and focusing.

If by 'often' you mean 'rarely, and then only in very, very poor light' then you're correct. Otherwise you're wrong. My 7D has managed 8 fps every single time I've asked it to do so.

I'm not sure why people keep inventing reasons to justify their preference for a 60D. There are many good reasons to recommend the cheaper body with no need for anti-7D FUD. Heck, I know all of those good reasons - because I bought a 60D as backup to my 7D.


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amfoto1
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Nov 15, 2011 13:03 |  #66

acroberts wrote in post #13402701 (external link)
*Fantastic* post with lots to think about.

Not to thread-jack, but could I ask a question?

I'm planning to step up from a XTi and considering 7D vs. 60D. I plan to take pics of my oldest kiddo's last year of indoor volleyball next year, as well as outdoor horse shows for the next few years.

I'm very comfortable with the XTi and want faster AF, higher ISO reach and improved performance in low-light. I'm shooting mostly single-shot, so what I'm reading above is that in single-shot move, the 7D and 60D are neck-and-neck?

And could you comment on low-light performance (AF and noise) between the 7D vs. 60D?

Guess I'd rather spend money on the 60D and glass (70-200 non-IS) than for the 7D and a cheaper lens.

Thanks!

Regarding high ISO performance...

Low light performance of 7D and 60D (and T3i, T2i for that matter) is identical. They all use the virtually the same sensor and Digic 4 processors.

50D and T1i use 15MP w/Digic 4 and is usable to about one stop lower high ISO. 40D/XTi are about the same high ISO performance as 50D/T1i, but are much lower resolution 10MP/Digic 3 processor.

So, where I'd use 50D at 1600, I'm comfortable using 7D (and would use 60D) at 3200. For comparison, I'll use 5DII to 6400.

It's a bit subjective, tho, comparing noise. A lot of folks think the noise from the 18MP cameras is more random and "nicer". And there are other considerations. Softwares have improved noise handling, too (current versions of Lightroom and Photoshop I use are considerably better than earlier versions). Additional software or plugins, such as Nik DFine, Noise Ninja, might be effective for you too.

Another consideration shooting low light is AF performance. It slows and can struggle... Large aperture lenses will make more difference than the camera, short of going to a 5DII or 1D series model. (Note: In spite of it's better low light abilities, I wouldn't recommend 5DII for sports/action, it's tracking in AI Servo just isn't as good and it only has one cross type AF sensor, the center point. But 5DII is still able to focus in low light, albeit slowly, about a stop lower light after my 7Ds have given up even trying.)

Shooting sports/actioin....

You really need to use AI Servo and learn to track your subjec. One Shot is for static subjects: portraits, still life, landscape, architecture. The camera and lens acquire focus, then stop. A moving subject will often move away from the point of focus before you can take the shot. (One time you can use One Shot is when "pre-focusing" on a particular point where you know the subject will be passing, then waiting until the subject comes to that point to trip the shutter. It might not work, though... especially if you focus and recompose... unless you also use Back Button Focusing to separate the AF function from the shutter release.)

I'd also suggest you try out Back Button Focusing (external link), which is a common Canon sports shooter trick and so effective I now use it for practically everything, no matter what AF mode I'm using.

As mentioned above, you also can use BBF with a pre-focus technique...

And BBF works well when using a single AF point, focusing and recomposing (usually the center point, since it's more sensitive on all Canon). This essentially puts the photographer back in charge of where the camera will focus, rather than leaving it up to luck that the camera will automatically choose the right point for you.

Using only the center point also somewhat levels the playing field from model to model... You can get nearly equal AI Servo performance out of all the current Canon models doing this. Some are a wee bit slower keeping up with a moving subject, in AI Servo. 5DII and Rebel series aren't quite as good as 60D... 7D is a little better than 60D... 1D series are a bit better even than 7D. One reason is that 7D and the 1D series have a separate processor to handle AF duties... The other cameras share that duty through their imaging processors.

But lenses play a big role, too. USM are faster and more accurate. Larger aperture lenses simply allow more light in to the AF sensors. (Note: Some extremely large aperture lenses and macro lenses are designed to focus more slowly, though... Emphasizing accuracy over speed of focus when dealing with very shallow depth of field.)

I have not used 60D enough to definitively say that it is neck and neck with 7D in One Shot mode. I do know that testing of 7D vs 50D (essentially the same AF system as 60D) showed 50D acquires AF lock a couple milliseconds faster than 7D.... This is in One Shot mode, though. There's no way to accurately test focus speed in AI Servo, it's constantly updating so never actually locks. But using both 7D and 50D extensively in AI Servo mode, where tracking is more important, 7D is a little bit better than 50D. Speaking only for myself, using BBF, AI Servo, center point only, I see 1 or 2 additional "keepers" out of 7D, for every 100 shots or so.

Another way of looking at it... with 50D I average about 94 to 96 out of 100 shots acceptibly in focus... and with 7D I average about 95 to 97 out of 100. No doubt some of the missed focus shots with each are due to "user error", while with others it's the camera didn't maintain focus. My criteria for "acceptible focus" is that I can make a good, sharp 8x10 from the image with a little cropping, if necessary.

7D offers some unique focus modes and additioinal tweaks or fine-tuning, compared to 60D/50D, etc. But the "lesser" cameras actually can do pretty darned well, with practice. They are simpler to use.

So, I definitely think a 60D with better glass would be the way to go.

If the $500-600 saved with 60D makes the difference between an f4 and f2.8 lens, then by all means get the 60D. (Or 50D is you don't need the extra stop of high ISO or video... 50D has Micro Adjust, 60D doesn't.)

You also mention non-IS... Frankly, I'd want IS, too. If the Canon 70-200/2.8 IS II is too rich, you might consider the first version which is selling for considerably less used (sometimes barely used). A possible alternative would be the Sigma 70-200/2.8 OS, which sells for about the same price as the Canon 70-200/2.8 non-IS. I haven't used the Sigma, though, so can't really comment on it's IQ. A lot of folks seem to think Sigma's OS is equal to Canon's IS... and that HSM is pretty comparable to USM.

I know someone will jump in and say that stabilization, whether Canon IS or Sigma OS, isn't needed shooting sports. After using IS lenses extensively for about 10 years now, much of it shooting sports/action... I disagree. I find it a useful, important feature that allows me to make some shots I simply couldn't otherwise. I don't go looking for it on shorter focal lengths, but if at all possible, want it on lenses from around 100mm on up.

If you are looking at the f4 lenses, well those are only available from Canon. They are considerably more compact and lighter. Could be pretty challenging for indoor shooting, though.


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
5DII, 7DII(x2), 7D(x2) & other cameras. 10-22mm, Tokina 12-24/4, 20/2.8, TS 24/3.5L, 24-70/2.8L, 28/1.8, 28-135 IS (x2), TS 45/2.8, 50/1.4, Tamron 60/2.0, 70-200/4L IS, 70-200/2.8 IS, 85/1.8, Tamron 90/2.5 Macro, 100/2.8 USM, 100-400L II, 135/2L, 180/3.5L, 300/4L IS (x2), 300/2.8L IS, 500/4L IS, EF 1.4X II, EF 2X II. Flashes, studio strobes & various access. - FLICKR (external link) - ZENFOLIO (external link)

  
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amfoto1
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Nov 15, 2011 13:12 |  #67

TeleFragger wrote in post #13402614 (external link)
...i have outgrew my t2i... i dont want a bigger, bulkier camera... however i need the 8fps.. yes 5.3 could do somewhat.. but 8fps is still 2.7 more....

Not necessarily... see posts here on POTN from people wondering why their 7D isn't achieving 8fps.

Sometimes (corrected for Frank) 7D has to slow down to allow time for metering and auto focus.

And, I'll repeat what I wrote earlier... 8 frames per second is not mandatory to shoot sports. It can be sort of a crutch that some people use in place of learning the camera and the sport, then how to time their shots well. You can often be better off learning to time individual shots, rather than "spraying n praying". High frame rates are not really a substitute for good timing. You can just end up with a whole lot more poorly times shots!

There are times and places when it's useful to switch to a high frame rate.... At equestrian events, for example, I like to use it when shooting some types of fast moving gymkhana events, or hunters and jumpers going over fences. I also sometimes switch to a high frame rate when shooting dressage or gaited horses, where I'm trying to catch exactly the right moment in a horse's stride. That can be very hard to time consistently. With my 50Ds, I could get 3 or 4 shots of a gymkhana horse and rider coming around a barrel. With 7Ds, I can get 4 or 5 shots. Shooting single shot with either camera, I might get 2 or 3. In any case, it will mean a lot more editing in post processing and I'll usually end up only keeping one or two of those shots (composition, subject expressions, and exposure all need to be good, in addition to focus being acceptible).

Not knockin' 7D... It's fast, well made, good quality camera that can make very nice images and has a bunch of features. It's got a big buffer that clears quickly thanks to dual processors. It's AF is a notch above the simpler, 9-point AF system of 60D.

In fact I bought 7D to back up my other 7D. They work well for me. I just wouldn't recommend it to everyone. I think particularly it would be hard for a newcomer to DSLRs to learn with 7D. At the same time, since the OP wants to shoot sports/action, I wouldn't recommend the other camera I use: 5DII. It's great for some things - low light, control over DOF, lots of detail in shots I want to print really big... But it's not my choice when I want to shoot sports and action, simply because I know it will miss focus more often (and the reach of the 1.6X croppers is nice, allows me to use smaller, lighter, handholdable lenses such as 70-200/2.8 and 300/4).

I just don't think folks should underestimate the 60D or 50D or 40D. In the right hands, with some practice, care and skill... and in many types of shooting situations including sports... 40/50/60D can come pretty darned close to matching the 7D.

That's all besides the savings, that can be put toward better glass, which ultimately can often make more difference than the camera it's used upon.


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
5DII, 7DII(x2), 7D(x2) & other cameras. 10-22mm, Tokina 12-24/4, 20/2.8, TS 24/3.5L, 24-70/2.8L, 28/1.8, 28-135 IS (x2), TS 45/2.8, 50/1.4, Tamron 60/2.0, 70-200/4L IS, 70-200/2.8 IS, 85/1.8, Tamron 90/2.5 Macro, 100/2.8 USM, 100-400L II, 135/2L, 180/3.5L, 300/4L IS (x2), 300/2.8L IS, 500/4L IS, EF 1.4X II, EF 2X II. Flashes, studio strobes & various access. - FLICKR (external link) - ZENFOLIO (external link)

  
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Vampire.Lestat
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Nov 15, 2011 13:29 |  #68

hollis_f wrote in post #13403134 (external link)
If by 'often' you mean 'rarely, and then only in very, very poor light' then you're correct. Otherwise you're wrong. My 7D has managed 8 fps every single time I've asked it to do so.

I'm not sure why people keep inventing reasons to justify their preference for a 60D. There are many good reasons to recommend the cheaper body with no need for anti-7D FUD. Heck, I know all of those good reasons - because I bought a 60D as backup to my 7D.

7D itself is the best crop-frame body I have ever known since I steped into the hobby of photography. At the beginning of this hobby, I only knew this was an excellent camera but I didn't know why it is good, will I really need it? when I started shooting, started learning experience of photography, my opinions about 7D kept becoming clearer and clearer, now I find it is really perfect cause I am in(guess so you do). But finally I don't want to sell my 60D or go for 7D. why? because I know I prefer a full-frame one. I know I don't need such a HSC, I think the same focusing ability as 60D is good enough for me to master. I focus on the quality of pic @ high ISO speed, I need High dynamic tolerance if I wanna change the original exposure a lot but still keep good performance. all what I want I can only enjoy from a Full-frame camera, even a basic full-frame camera such as 5D2. I don't know what preference the op will get in the future, crop-frame or full-frame? quality of pic or excellent shooting performance or both. I just try to give him a logical suggestion, when he wanna update, he will lose less if he choose 60D at beginning for the price popuse. this hobby need money to support, I understand what will a person feel when he find his camera is not suitable for himself, at least 60D will be easier for you to get rid of this bad emotion when it happen.

I am not against you. I just wanna help him in my opinion, and I believe so do you and others. whatever, he is the only man who can do the choice.


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You-by-Lou
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Nov 15, 2011 13:30 |  #69

Lacks_focus wrote in post #13403009 (external link)
And all this makes absolutely NO difference to the user unless they have recent and extensive time behind a 35MM

amen amen amen amen amen amen.

for the life of me I don't get why this is brought up over and over again.
I have never in my life looked through a 50mm lens on an old film 35mm so I have NO reference point that is is "really" an 80.

i do love my 85mm lens too oh wait or is that a 136?


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amfoto1
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Nov 15, 2011 14:00 |  #70

You-by-Lou wrote in post #13403413 (external link)
amen amen amen amen amen amen.

for the life of me I don't get why this is brought up over and over again.
I have never in my life looked through a 50mm lens on an old film 35mm so I have NO reference point that is is "really" an 80.

i do love my 85mm lens too oh wait or is that a 136?

Nah, it's a wide angle on my 4x5 Wista...

Or a standard lens on a Pentax 67...

Or a pretty strong telephoto on a Pentax 110 ;)


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
5DII, 7DII(x2), 7D(x2) & other cameras. 10-22mm, Tokina 12-24/4, 20/2.8, TS 24/3.5L, 24-70/2.8L, 28/1.8, 28-135 IS (x2), TS 45/2.8, 50/1.4, Tamron 60/2.0, 70-200/4L IS, 70-200/2.8 IS, 85/1.8, Tamron 90/2.5 Macro, 100/2.8 USM, 100-400L II, 135/2L, 180/3.5L, 300/4L IS (x2), 300/2.8L IS, 500/4L IS, EF 1.4X II, EF 2X II. Flashes, studio strobes & various access. - FLICKR (external link) - ZENFOLIO (external link)

  
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Vampire.Lestat
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Nov 15, 2011 14:22 |  #71

amfoto1 wrote in post #13403290 (external link)
Low light performance of 7D and 60D (and T3i, T2i for that matter) is identical. They all use the virtually the same sensor and Digic 4 processors.

I have different opinions about this question.

I believe that 7D 60D 550D use the same sensor and cpu, but they use the different processing Algorithmic. 60D , 550D is mostly for amateurs, focus on the output quality. so the low ISO performance is a little bit better than 7D. 7D is totally a Accurate, high speed professional camera, mostly for professional journalist, Professional documentary, focus on the efficiency and veracity, such people will not need such a high performance about pic quality so much.

this evidence is got from chinese websites, I am sorry that I can not provide you with english edition, I either don't know where you can find them in english website or report. But you can test it yourself if possible.

7D is more for working, less on quality of pic.


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http://www.flickr.com/​photos/esidemao/ (external link)

  
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RobDickinson
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Nov 15, 2011 14:42 |  #72

Vampire.Lestat wrote in post #13403645 (external link)
I believe that 7D 60D 550D use the same sensor

They dont. They almost do but the 7D has 4 channel reads the others 2 channel.

Actually means that the others get slightly better IQ with a more balanced green but its those 4 channel readout lines that give the 7D its 8fps.

And the 7D does 8fps all day so long as there is enough light, and by enough 99% of the time you have enough.

Specifically surfing shots you will NEVER see a slowdown due to meetering / low light.


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Nov 15, 2011 14:45 as a reply to  @ post 13401909 |  #73

Yeah, sure, buy the 7D if you can afford it and don't mind lugging it around (being it's heavy). Once you learn how to use its features and get beyond the learning curve, you'll have a lot of fun with it. Two lenses I use the most on my 7D is the EF-S 10-22 for landscapes and the EF 70-200 f/4L IS for outdoor sports.




  
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Vampire.Lestat
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Nov 15, 2011 14:57 |  #74

RobDickinson wrote in post #13403745 (external link)
They dont. They almost do but the 7D has 4 channel reads the others 2 channel.

Actually means that the others get slightly better IQ with a more balanced green but its those 4 channel readout lines that give the 7D its 8fps.

And the 7D does 8fps all day so long as there is enough light, and by enough 99% of the time you have enough.

Specifically surfing shots you will NEVER see a slowdown due to meetering / low light.


sorry I forget the channel quantity:p


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dfbovey
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Nov 15, 2011 15:14 |  #75

Vampire.Lestat wrote in post #13401087 (external link)
sorry I am not saying 7D is a bad camera. I just wanna say most freshers will not feel and use the extra advantages of 7D

Depends on what they shoot. For me, constantly shooting moving objects, animals, birds in flight, I wouldn't want to do that with the 60D. Taking photos of sports and surfing is similar in principal. The 7D is a better camera for that kind of photography no matter what level of experience you are. It's what it was made for.

Being a person that hikes and who will be out in the weather while shooting, the build of the 7D is also much more preferable over the 60D. It's weather sealed and a stronger build.


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Am I Crazy for wanting a 7D
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