Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Photo Sharing & Visual Enjoyment Sports 
Thread started 30 Nov 2011 (Wednesday) 18:14
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Is this an improvement?

 
Pirate65
Member
45 posts
Gallery: 8 photos
Likes: 12
Joined Jan 2011
Location: Central Texas
     
Nov 30, 2011 18:14 |  #1

A while back my family purchased a canon rebel xsi that came with 2 lenses, an 18-55 and a 75-300. I knew nothing about photography when I bought this camera and still don't know a lot. I am to the point though that I am beginning to shoot on the partial manual modes and not the fully automatic mode. Most of my photos are of the family which is why we bought the camera. But now my 9 year old son is playing football and basketball and I have been using the camera to take pictures of that with mixed results. In particular I am having trouble taking pictures of my son playing basketball because of the poor middle school and church gym lighting. I am aware that the 75-300 lense is a poor lense for this and just a poor lense in general. To hopefully allow me to take pictures in these poor conditions I just ordered a Tamron AF18-270mm f/3.5-6.3 Di II VC PZD. I also want it to be a lense that I can use when on vacation etc. I just received this lense today from B&H today and am having second thoughts. Is this lense really going to be an improvement? Will I be able to take the basketball pictures that I want to and still use the lense for other situations? Is there a better option for me Ina similar price range? Thank you in advance for your time.

Kevin


Kevin Reid
Kevinreidphotography.c​om

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
elrey2375
Thinks it's irresponsible
Avatar
4,992 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 274
Joined Nov 2011
     
Nov 30, 2011 18:45 |  #2

With a maximum aperture of 3.5, that I'm sure doesn't last long once you start zooming, no it won't be an improvement. Depending on where you are situated when you are trying to take these photos, you might have a couple of options. The Canon 85 1.8 is actually a little cheaper than the Tamron you bought and it will be sharper but it won't be a zoom, so that's the compromise with that one. If you are willing to put a bit more cash with it, you can find a Canon 70-200 2.8 Non IS version for probably $900-$1K and that would obviously give you a zoom range and a better maximum aperture, which is a must in bad lighting. If you the Canon is a bit expensive, you might also try the Sigma 70-200 2.8. I shot basketball for an entire season using that lens as my primary and had fantastic results and it will only run you about $750 or so on Amazon or ebay. Good luck and hope this helps.


http://emjfotografi.co​m/ (external link)
http://500px.com/EMJFo​tografi (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
yourdoinitwrong
Goldmember
Avatar
2,394 posts
Joined Apr 2009
Location: Indiana
     
Nov 30, 2011 18:48 |  #3

The problem you are having is not so much the lens but the aperture of the lens. I shoot a LOT of indoor basketball and a lens that only goes to f/3.5 will not allow you to get the shutter speeds you need unless you are at a very high ISO or you are in a gym with stellar lighting which I know is hardly ever the case. Typically I use the 85mm f/1.8 lens at f/2.0 to get a shutter speed of 1/500th at ISO 1600 or higher depending on the facility and even the spot on the court as the lighting can be very uneven.

To avoid motion blur for kids that age you will need to have a shutter speed no slower than 1/400th and at f/3.5 and slower that will be very difficult. About the only solution is a prime lens, even my f/2.8 zoom is rarely adequate. In fact, I can only use it one facility, everywhere else is too dim. Basically what I'm getting at is there isn't a walk-around zoom that will accomplish what you need. The fastest zooms are constant f/2.8 and that usually won't cut it.

I know that is not what you want to hear but I have been in your situation a few years ago and like many others on the forum, ended up with a prime lens because that is what is necessary. The 85mm f/1.8 is a very popular lens for indoor sports. It has fast autofocus, is very sharp, and is (relatively speaking) affordable. Hope that helps out a little bit. Also, welcome to the forum. This place is full of very valuable information.


5D4 w/BG-E20, 24-105 f/4L, 70-200 f/2.8L IS II, 35 f/1.4L, 85 f/1.8, 100 f/2.8L IS Macro, Sigma 50 f/1.4
Full List

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
clarence
Goldmember
Avatar
2,204 posts
Likes: 1
Joined May 2008
Location: Northern VA
     
Nov 30, 2011 19:10 |  #4

Pirate65 wrote in post #13476270 (external link)
To hopefully allow me to take pictures in these poor conditions I just ordered a Tamron AF18-270mm f/3.5-6.3 Di II VC PZD.

Will I be able to take the basketball pictures that I want to

No, even in a NBA arena you'd struggle to get sufficient exposures with a f/6.3 lens on a Rebel XSi in ambient gym lighting.

Consider the 85/1.8 - usually around $300 used in the FS subforum or on ebay


For Sale: 1D, T1i, 800mm, 600mm

5D3, 1D4, 7D, 600/4L, 200/1.8L, Sigmonster 300-800mm, 80-200/2.8L MDP, 28-70/2.8L, 85/1.8, 50/1.4, 12-24mm, (4) 550EXs, (4) WL strobes, PW MiniTT1/FlexTT5s/AC3/A​C9s
LoCo-Photo.com (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
snyderman
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
7,083 posts
Likes: 7
Joined Nov 2008
Location: Wadsworth, Ohio
     
Nov 30, 2011 19:51 |  #5

Kevin:

Not sure what the lens your purchased cost, but as others have mentioned, the 85mm f/1.8 is a really good choice! Plus it'll double as a razor sharp portrait lens for your kids when they're not playing sports.

At the age your kids are, you can certainly work your way down to the court to get shots. You don't need a 300mm lens and shoot from the stands. Get close to the action. From sideline or baseline, the 85mm will do great on YOUR half of the court. It won't reach the basket on the OTHER side of the court with much success, but anything inside the 3-point line is going to work great.

Lens at f/2, shutter on 1/500 for kids this age and raise ISO until you have good exposure. This is the BEST recipe for shooting ambient light indoor basketball at middle school level. When he gets to high school, raise the shutter speed to 1/640.

Here's an example of the Canon 85mm f/1.8 set to f/2, 1/640 and ISO in the 2500 range:

IMAGE: http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5175/5498632306_4f8798640e_z.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com …erphotography/5​498632306/  (external link)
IMG_4742 (external link) by snyderman3 (external link), on Flickr

Last thought: The 85mm f/1.8 is definitely one of Canon's 'best bang for the buck' lenses. Can be bought here on the buy n sell boards usually for less than $350 with a Canon hood.

Good luck.

dave

Canon 5D2 > 35L-85L-135L

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Pirate65
THREAD ­ STARTER
Member
45 posts
Gallery: 8 photos
Likes: 12
Joined Jan 2011
Location: Central Texas
     
Nov 30, 2011 22:48 |  #6

I really appreciate the advice. I ordered the below Tameron lense from B&H. http://www.bhphotovide​o.com …234+4294185281+​4261208187 (external link)
I told them what I was trying to photograph and what I was currently using and that is what they suggested. After hearing all the positive things about B&H here and other places I am a bit dissappointed that this is what they suggested. Based on the suggestions I have gotten so far on here I am looking at the 85mmf/1.8 which is on sale from B&H for $358. My only issue with that lense is I also shoot my son playing football during that season and that lense would not be very good at that. Well his football games are mostly during the day so I guess I could continue to use my crappy 70-300 kit lense.


Kevin Reid
Kevinreidphotography.c​om

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
erdons
Senior Member
Avatar
298 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 4
Joined Oct 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA
     
Nov 30, 2011 23:18 as a reply to  @ Pirate65's post |  #7

Idk what your budget is, but a 70-200 IS 2.8 L would be your solution for both basketball and football.... That Tamron lens would probably be ok for daytime football.


5D Mark III|7D Mark II|60D|T3|24-70/f2.8|70-200/f2.8L MK II ||Canon Speedlite 600 EX RT|Canon Speedlite 580EXII|2x Alien Bee B800

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
elrey2375
Thinks it's irresponsible
Avatar
4,992 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 274
Joined Nov 2011
     
Nov 30, 2011 23:21 |  #8

Pirate65 wrote in post #13477667 (external link)
I really appreciate the advice. I ordered the below Tameron lense from B&H. http://www.bhphotovide​o.com …234+4294185281+​4261208187 (external link)
I told them what I was trying to photograph and what I was currently using and that is what they suggested. After hearing all the positive things about B&H here and other places I am a bit dissappointed that this is what they suggested. Based on the suggestions I have gotten so far on here I am looking at the 85mmf/1.8 which is on sale from B&H for $358. My only issue with that lense is I also shoot my son playing football during that season and that lense would not be very good at that. Well his football games are mostly during the day so I guess I could continue to use my crappy 70-300 kit lense.

You could sell the Tamron lens and with just a bit more money, buy this lens. It would be good for basketball and also work for football.

http://www.newegg.com …-_-SIGMA-_-9SIA04D01D3828 (external link)


http://emjfotografi.co​m/ (external link)
http://500px.com/EMJFo​tografi (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
AntonLargiader
Goldmember
Avatar
1,825 posts
Joined Oct 2010
Location: Charlottesville, VA
     
Dec 01, 2011 06:24 |  #9

snyderman wrote in post #13476792 (external link)
Here's an example of the Canon 85mm f/1.8 set to f/2, 1/640 and ISO in the 2500 range

With a 5D. :) FWIW the OP's camera only goes to 1600 ISO but he can get some of that back with a slightly slower shutter.

+5 (or whatever) on the lens. For action with an XSi, the Tamron isn't an improvement over the 75-300. The Tamron's strength is that it's a 15x superzoom, but you don't find those with a wide or constant aperture and it's not an action lens (but it's probably great for the vacation photos). Return it while you can, if you can only buy one expensive lens for sports. For that money you can get a 70-200 f/4L (still not the fastest, but you can shoot f/4 everywhere) or stretch towards a used 2.8L which everyone knows is the best lens in the world. :) if you want to stay with a zoom.

On the downside, if you get a 70-200 you will find yourself swapping for the 18-55 much more, because moving subjects fill the frame pretty quickly and when you get to 70 you are done. On a crop, 70 is a limitation for general use.

If you are going to be doing a lot of this, you might start to think about a different body. The XSi is a very capable general-use camera but indoor sports puts a premium on high ISO and (for certain things) fast AF. The T2i/60D/7D generation has very good 3200 ISO performance and goes to 12,800 when needed, and the 7D brings a lot of AF processing horsepower to the table (but you're talking over $1000 now). But if you have about $700 to spend this time, I'd go for the faster lens first, unless you can swing a T2i upgrade and the 85/1.8 together? Just thinking out loud... don't know you budget or you other needs.


T2i . 18-55 IS . 70-300 IS USM . 70-200 2.8L IS . 28mm 1.8 . 100 Macro . 430EX II . TT1/TT5 . Bogen/Manfrotto 3021 w/3265 ball-mount

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
DC ­ Fan
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
5,881 posts
Gallery: 3 photos
Likes: 49
Joined Oct 2005
     
Dec 01, 2011 09:23 as a reply to  @ AntonLargiader's post |  #10

A camera in the XSi's class, with a high ISO of 1600, could be coaxed to get a useful indoor basketball image with a slower Canon 75-300mm lens. Here's what happened when one of the XSi's predecessors, the XTi, was used with a Canon 70-300mm IS lens (which has a similar aperture range to the 75-300mm lens) for indoor basketball.

IMAGE NOT FOUND
IMAGE IS A REDIRECT OR MISSING!
Byte size: ZERO | Content warning: NOT AN IMAGE


Focal Length: 225.0mm
Aperture: f/5.0
Exposure Time: 0.0080 s (1/125)
ISO equiv: 1600
Exposure Bias: none
Metering Mode: Matrix
Exposure: shutter priority (semi-auto)
White Balance: Manual
Flash Fired: No (enforced)
Orientation: Normal
Color Space: sRGB

IMAGE NOT FOUND
IMAGE IS A REDIRECT OR MISSING!
Byte size: ZERO | Content warning: NOT AN IMAGE


Focal Length: 190.0mm
Aperture: f/5.0
Exposure Time: 0.0063 s (1/160)
ISO equiv: 1600
Exposure Bias: none
Metering Mode: Matrix
Exposure: shutter priority (semi-auto)
White Balance: Manual
Flash Fired: No (enforced)
Orientation: Normal
Color Space: sRGB


However, the shutter speed for a useful exposure is nearly too slow to be effective.

One inexpensive lens alternative, useful if you can get on the baseline, is the Canon f/1.8 II, which produced these images.

IMAGE NOT FOUND
IMAGE IS A REDIRECT OR MISSING!
Byte size: ZERO | Content warning: NOT AN IMAGE


Focal Length: 50.0mm
Aperture: f/2.0
Exposure Time: 0.0016 s (1/640)
ISO equiv: 2000
Exposure Bias: none
Metering Mode: Matrix
Exposure: shutter priority (semi-auto)
White Balance: Auto
Flash Fired: No (enforced)
Orientation: Normal
Color Space: sRGB

IMAGE NOT FOUND
IMAGE IS A REDIRECT OR MISSING!
Byte size: ZERO | Content warning: NOT AN IMAGE


Focal Length: 50.0mm
Aperture: f/2.0
Exposure Time: 0.0010 s (1/1000)
ISO equiv: 2000
Exposure Bias: none
Metering Mode: Matrix
Exposure: shutter priority (semi-auto)
White Balance: Auto
Flash Fired: No (enforced)
Orientation: Normal
Color Space: sRGB

These examples came from a Canon T2i, which has a higher maximum ISO than the XSi. Still, they demonstrate the potential faster shutter speed with a faster, reasonably priced lens.



  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Pirate65
THREAD ­ STARTER
Member
45 posts
Gallery: 8 photos
Likes: 12
Joined Jan 2011
Location: Central Texas
     
Dec 01, 2011 21:04 |  #11

Would this Tamron 70-200 F2.8 be an acceptable lense that would work both for kids basketball and football? http://www.bhphotovide​o.com …i=rev#anchorToR​eadReviews (external link)
Keep in mind I have a Canon eos rebel with a top IOS of 1600?


Kevin Reid
Kevinreidphotography.c​om

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
yourdoinitwrong
Goldmember
Avatar
2,394 posts
Joined Apr 2009
Location: Indiana
     
Dec 01, 2011 21:26 |  #12

Pirate65 wrote in post #13482384 (external link)
Would this Tamron 70-200 F2.8 be an acceptable lense that would work both for kids basketball and football? http://www.bhphotovide​o.com …i=rev#anchorToR​eadReviews (external link)
Keep in mind I have a Canon eos rebel with a top IOS of 1600?

You're moving in the right direction but I still think that f/2.8 might not be fast enough at ISO 1600 for a lot of school gyms. The lighting usually sucks.....bad. Many of the ones I have been in I would have to be right around f/2.0 at ISO 1600 (or higher) to get a fast enough shutter speed. There really isn't a zoom lens that will do both sports adequately. I can't speak to the Tamron lens specifically as I have no experience with it. The one thing that is noticeably absent in all the descriptions I found was the type of AF motor it has. If it isn't the equivalent of the USM that Canon uses and is the older screw-type the focusing could be very slow.

You will probably have to have a two lens solution. My choice would be the Canon 70-200 f/4 non-IS for the football (daytime) and the 85 f/1.8 for basketball. The total would be a few hundred more than that Tamron lens but you would have both sports covered, and two very good lenses.


5D4 w/BG-E20, 24-105 f/4L, 70-200 f/2.8L IS II, 35 f/1.4L, 85 f/1.8, 100 f/2.8L IS Macro, Sigma 50 f/1.4
Full List

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
elrey2375
Thinks it's irresponsible
Avatar
4,992 posts
Gallery: 2 photos
Likes: 274
Joined Nov 2011
     
Dec 01, 2011 22:37 |  #13

There's no substitute for being able to crank the ISO up. I am also probably spoiled because I don't shoot that much high school basketball. D1 gyms are usually decent and with a 7D I never had to go higher than 1600 to get the shutter speed I wanted. High school football on the other hand is terrible lighting, so I can identify with you there. I don't know how attached you are to the camera but you could almost sell what you've got, lens and body and get a 1D Mark IIn and a sigma 70-200 2.8 that's for sale in the sale section here for $630 and that would be a nice setup.


http://emjfotografi.co​m/ (external link)
http://500px.com/EMJFo​tografi (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Pirate65
THREAD ­ STARTER
Member
45 posts
Gallery: 8 photos
Likes: 12
Joined Jan 2011
Location: Central Texas
     
Dec 03, 2011 14:21 |  #14

Based on feedback here I am going to get the Canon 85 f/1.8 to use for basketball. After that I will start saving for a Canon 70-200 F4 for my sons football which is played during the day time. I will also keep my eyes open for a good deal on a 7D body. I'm gonna have to get another job to afford to taske pics of my family. When I order my 85mm from BH should I also get some type of hood and/or filter? Remember this will be for poorly lit basketball gyms. Again thank you everyone for your help.


Kevin Reid
Kevinreidphotography.c​om

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
yourdoinitwrong
Goldmember
Avatar
2,394 posts
Joined Apr 2009
Location: Indiana
     
Dec 03, 2011 14:36 |  #15

Pirate65 wrote in post #13489640 (external link)
Based on feedback here I am going to get the Canon 85 f/1.8 to use for basketball. After that I will start saving for a Canon 70-200 F4 for my sons football which is played during the day time. I will also keep my eyes open for a good deal on a 7D body. I'm gonna have to get another job to afford to taske pics of my family. When I order my 85mm from BH should I also get some type of hood and/or filter? Remember this will be for poorly lit basketball gyms. Again thank you everyone for your help.

Hood = yes
Filter = no

The hood will serve two purposes. First is its intended purpose of preventing light from coming in at undesirable angles and causing flare. The other is protecting against bumps and/or drops. For basketball indoors you really don't need a filter, at least in my opinion. I have one for my 85 but it only gets used if I'm outdoors and it's dusty. It could also be used outdoors if there is something like light spray from the ocean but since the 85 isn't weather-sealed I wouldn't use it in those conditions anyway. If you are going to get a filter just get a clear protector, a UV filter won't do anything for you.


5D4 w/BG-E20, 24-105 f/4L, 70-200 f/2.8L IS II, 35 f/1.4L, 85 f/1.8, 100 f/2.8L IS Macro, Sigma 50 f/1.4
Full List

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

3,285 views & 0 likes for this thread
Is this an improvement?
FORUMS Photo Sharing & Visual Enjoyment Sports 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is basauder
616 guests, 337 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.