Creative Live - Jasmine Star Workshop

bnlearle wrote in post #13518632
I've yet to see a photographer whine about Jasmine who's actually better than Jasmine...

I have never whined about jasmine or her success. I think shes probably a better photographer than myself. Don't know because i have not worked side by side to see what she does. She is definately way better at post production.

What I am saying, and i want to be perfectly clear about this, is the approach they (PPA and WPPI) are taking and the food they are feeding the entry level crowd. you cant learn this stuff by attending 1 or 2 seminars and then think you can go out an actually do this. That message is not being taught.

bnlearle. I think your in southern California San Diego area. My old stomping grounds. You know the market out there. Many of my friends that shoot sports wont even try to jump into the market in SO Cal because of whats going on out there. They are outstanding photographers. Im not complaining and/or whining. Just stating fact about whats going on. I think jasmine is good. I understand from you that she is a really nice gal and has a great personality. I think that is awesome. Does that make her the best of the best ? Not so sure. I think this approach that she and others take with this marketing is dead wrong and eventually hurts the industry. I have also voiced this to many PPA and WPPI instructors. It goes in one ear and out the other.

bnlearle wrote in post #13518632
I've yet to see a photographer whine about Jasmine who's actually better than Jasmine...

I don't see a great deal of whining myself. I see a lot of people saying she is a great business woman and had fantastic marketing abilities and a very nice person too.

I also see people saying whilst her photographs are good there are quite a few wedding photographers out there who are better.

She does what she does well... top ten wedding photography business yes... top ten wedding photographer no.

The differentiation being between her business, her as a person and her photography.

If I wanted to a good model as to how to market a wedding photography business she'd be on my list (in fact is). However she isn't close to being on my great wedding photographer's list for their photography.

bnlearle wrote in post #13518632
I've yet to see a WEDDING photographer whine about Jasmine who's actually better than Jasmine...

There, that's better.

Honestly, this is like talking about Kenny G in music. My opinion about him is that he's good at what he does but by no means is he great. But he sure does make his money and while his music isn't my cup of tea, he's the one laughing all the way to the bank.

I think I feel the same way about her. She certainly isn't on the level of say Cliff Mautner, but it doesn't matter because she's a wizard in business and marketing. Gathering from her Bio, she's an extremely intelligent person. Put the two and two together and you have a very successful woman.

The only thing I'll mention is that there are lots of people out there shooting weddings from the beginning and not necessarily attempt to become a good photographer. Of course being a good general photographer isn't really a requirement at all to shoot weddings but that's not the way I approached it.

bnlearle wrote in post #13518632
I've yet to see a photographer whine about Jasmine who's actually better than Jasmine...

That's because they are professional enough to respect her ace marketing skills.

One more remark i want to make about how PPA and WPPi determines who are the top ten photographers. Its basically a mutual admiration society within their own organization.

Again Taking nothing away from jasmines abilities and skills

If you have a pretty face, can speak well, can photograph well, then the PPA and the WPPI will vote you into the top ten. It promotes their teaching agendas. They do it with everyone. These are not top 10 photographers across the country voted on by photographers across the country..these are top 10 photographers within their organization.

They use this approach for everything they market for their educational programs. You name it they do it. its just how these groups operate. The instruction and training is very basic photography with a few " this is what i do" added into the mix. Everything they market is right in their PPA business guidelines and studio guidelines and its on their site as well. Again,,old stuff rehashed.

BTW. I am a PPA member. Why? for the $327.00 I spend on my membership, i get 15K of automatic gear coverage insurance and liability insurance coverage in case i get sued. Also get some other perks like their professional photographer magazine and access to any information i may need or want about running a studio, the business guidelines and pricing procedures. There is more but the benefits far outweigh the costs for membership as far as I'm concerned.

And once your a member they are going to hit you up every chance they can to attend this seminar for $39.00, become a certified photographer for a bunch of fees, some image certifications and being able to pass a test plus other stuff that all these teaching instructors are involved with.

To me its a non stop look at me self promotional program for these guys so you recognize it, take it for whats its worth and move on. The instructors images are very nice, very controlled, very much processed in photoshop, and very artistic to give to newer photographer that "wow" punch in the arm feeling. They will never show you something straight off a camera. Its all in their routine. Its just how it is.

umphotography wrote in post #13522567
BTW. I am a PPA member. Why? for the $327.00 I spend on my membership, i get 15K of automatic gear coverage insurance and liability insurance coverage in case i get sued. Also get some other perks like their professional photographer magazine and access to any information i may need or want about running a studio, the business guidelines and pricing procedures. There is more but the benefits far outweigh the costs for membership as far as I'm concerned.

I know you said a lot in there, but I wanted to pull this piece out just to clarify. From my understanding, they do not include liability insurance with their membership, but include you in an indemnity trust - 2 different things from what I have gathered.

One gets liability insurance (1 million, etc.) coverage for things like venues that require it. It protects you if someone trips over your bag, or you knock over a candle and burn the place down.

The indemnity trust helps cover you from things like errors and omissions. Things like a corrupted card, lost images, etc. They have lawyers on call that you can talk to about before you get sued and hopefully stop it before it happens, but if you do go to court, my understanding is there is a small premium you have to pay (under $1k) and they help take care of the rest.

Again, this is just my understanding, and I know it is off topic, but I think it is an important distinction to make.

umphotography wrote in post #13522567
One more remark i want to make about how PPA and WPPi determines who are the top ten photographers. . . .

I agree with everything you've said in your post, but in fairness, this is the way most professional organizations operate. They are self perpetuating, doing whatever they can to drive demand for their fees whether it be membership, seminars, certifications, or anything else.

I'm active in ISM (Institute for Supply Management, formerly the NAPM or the National Association for Purchasing Management) and it's exactly the same way. That said, membership in this organization does offer me some value. It kind of comes back to an earlier post I made about "nuggets". You take the value that you need/want and try not to pay too much attention to all the chatter.