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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 19 Jan 2011 (Wednesday) 19:42
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Grip 101: Show your booms and grip hardware in action!

 
Dave ­ Jr
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Dec 11, 2011 03:02 |  #691

Csae wrote in post #13525900 (external link)
Have you tried putting the expan half-way in a core and tightening it? It might actually apply pressure on both the cardboard, and the alu core, which would remove the bow point and make it very similar to a full alu core...

At least thats the impression i got taking out of my expans to have a look, but i don't have a alu core to mess with it.

Also, if i stuck an alu core in a bowed paper, is there a chance with enough knockin and Pi'ing, i could maybe straighten the paper out? Oh, and wouldn't using a even counterweight on the paper also help reduce bowing? It would keep it tighter and spread the weight...

That was the thought with my idea to cut the core shorter, that the end of the expan could trap the cardboard while the rest of it traps the Alu-core. But the rigid Alu-core may prevent the ability of the end to expand against the cardboard, I'll have to see if I can test that. Also, the Alu-core is longer than the cardboard by an inch or two, so that is why it would need to be cut.

Putting an Alu-core in a bowed roll would definitely straighten it. The paper may still be dented when it unrolls, but these things are solid.


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SuperHuman21
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Dec 11, 2011 03:06 |  #692

Case, I've done something just like that on a smaller scale and the physics seems to make sense--I didn't have a problem with it. EDIT: As in, using a support only partly on both ends.

Now, there are a few options here:

1) Twisted Iron style poles that supposedly should be stronger and not bow as much.

2) If you feel creative enough, push in little triangles throughout the pole or maybe even tennis balls or whatever may fit but triangles would be awesome I'd assume, based on my experience in building models of stuff in school.

3) Probably the craziest one but I definitely would like to try this in the future if it comes to it. A tensioned steel wire that'll never sag after a little adjustment here and there.


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Csae
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Dec 11, 2011 03:34 |  #693

SuperHuman21 wrote in post #13525928 (external link)
Case, I've done something just like that on a smaller scale and the physics seems to make sense--I didn't have a problem with it. EDIT: As in, using a support only partly on both ends.

Now, there are a few options here:

1) Twisted Iron style poles that supposedly should be stronger and not bow as much.

2) If you feel creative enough, push in little triangles throughout the pole or maybe even tennis balls or whatever may fit but triangles would be awesome I'd assume, based on my experience in building models of stuff in school.

3) Probably the craziest one but I definitely would like to try this in the future if it comes to it. A tensioned steel wire that'll never sag after a little adjustment here and there.

Sadly none of those sound like it would work, and we are not talking about putting a support on the ends, thatd be useless, we're talking about putting a support in the very center Leaving just the ends with NO support other then expans.

1) Sounds crazy expensive, you realize the diameter of a cardboard core is like 3-4", the alu-cores onsale for this purpose are hollow and i belive strong enough, and they only cost 40$ for a 9' The only issue with them we're actually discussing is how they don't seem to fit the cardboard cores tight enough and so the papercore will slip over the alu core.

2) triangles would pierce the cardboard, putting uneven pressure points might also cause weird ovalness over time, tennis balls wouldn't take the pressure, and i can't really think of anything the proper size and strength to fit...I'm sure there are things, i just can't think of them from a reasonable/ affordable/ re-usable POV compared to the already onsale alucores.

3) See n#1


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plusnq
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Dec 11, 2011 04:09 |  #694

Two circular rubber wedges should do the trick.


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kfyount
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Dec 11, 2011 15:23 |  #695

DwightMcCann wrote in post #13510725 (external link)
I just ordered two short wall mount boom arms, four superclamps and two Avenger swivels for use with Autopoles and background lights. Now I need pictures of the screws to mount the arms to the superclamps.

Dave Jr wrote in post #13511188 (external link)
Again, the screws are 5mm x 16mm long, hex drive, and you'll need two per clamp, four per boom. These are basically the same screws that they include with Expan paper system to secure the paper hanging brackets.

Dwight - these are the same screws that are used on bicycles to attach things to the frames - at least they are the same as on my bike.


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MDJAK
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Dec 11, 2011 18:29 |  #696

I can finally contribute to this thread. Did a studio shoot today with my Mola Setti mounted on an avenger steel stand with a Manfroto boom arm. These aren't bts, they're in front of the scene. :lol:

IMAGE: http://markrichman.zenfolio.com/img/s11/v30/p155438823-4.jpg



  
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MDJAK
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Dec 11, 2011 18:30 |  #697

Clockwork Orange motif:

IMAGE: http://markrichman.zenfolio.com/img/s11/v37/p30467315-4.jpg



  
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TMR ­ Design
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Dec 11, 2011 18:31 as a reply to  @ MDJAK's post |  #698

LOLOLOL .. In Front Of The Scene... brilliant!


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aaron.dunlap
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Dec 11, 2011 20:20 |  #699

I'm gonna thinking "outside the roll" on this one. Has anyone ever considered getting some PVC that is *bigger* than the roll of paper?

Follow me on this:
1) get bigger tube
2) cut a strip out of the tube length-wise to pull the paper through
3) cover the cut edges with a couple of layers of gaffer's tape to prevent issues with the paper when pulling it out.

Its a bit much, but it should 100% prevent bowing. It would be like a 9 foot long "C" that supports the roll along the entire length.


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Csae
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Dec 11, 2011 20:42 |  #700

aaron.dunlap wrote in post #13529405 (external link)
I'm gonna thinking "outside the roll" on this one. Has anyone ever considered getting some PVC that is *bigger* than the roll of paper?

Follow me on this:
1) get bigger tube
2) cut a strip out of the tube length-wise to pull the paper through
3) cover the cut edges with a couple of layers of gaffer's tape to prevent issues with the paper when pulling it out.

Its a bit much, but it should 100% prevent bowing. It would be like a 9 foot long "C" that supports the roll along the entire length.

This is only if i understand what you are saying right, PVC doesn't come in that many sizes, so it would likely be bigger by a margin then your paper roll (who by the way gets smaller as you unroll it, even smaller if you cut away used paper) so the "C" would just sorta hang ontop of the roll, not providing any support underneath just providing more weight across the entire roll probably making rolling & unrolling harder as well, though we have mentioned that having evenly distributed weight across the entire roll might might help, but probably not as much as having extra support within the core itself.

Also, you could achieve the same effect of providing weight evenly across the entire roll by using one of the previously mentioned paper clamps at the bottom which also make unrolling & rolling much easier.


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Dave ­ Jr
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Dec 11, 2011 21:34 |  #701

BTW, my double sided form sticky tape failed already. It got full of cardboard bits and lot its tackiness. I peeled off what I could and then wrapped over with tennis racket grip material. This is working great so far. If it doesn't hold up, maybe I'll be the guinea pig to cut the alu-core down.


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Csae
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Dec 11, 2011 22:50 |  #702

Okay, so i wanted to try the PVC thing since i actually remembered i had two 7' that i had used for an attempt at a video dolly.

It was nearly the right diameter, heres some comparison shots, note that based on the tiny difference in size i do not think you could walk into a hardware store and pickup just slightly larger PVC, in fact i think the normal next step-up would be far too big. PVC is out as an anti-sag unless you use one long enough to be the resting point and are not using Expans since the expans do not fit inside at all.

Why not just try it half alu/half expan prior to cutting it up? just to see if you can get the expan to grip the inner alu core while still expanding to grip the outer cardboard ? ?

I can see this being tested prior to cutting with no problem, it would still need to be cut to have Both expans in since i believe the alucore is slightly longer then the paper roll, but it should be able to be tested on the ground prior to any cutting.

Take the roll down completely remove both expans, slide in the alu core to about half of where the expan would be inside the cardboard core, this will make the alucore extend significantly beyond the other end of the paper. Now try tightening the expand inside both the alucore and cardboard (not responsible if you break something) if you feel its tight enough, you should now be able to clip the super extended alucore on a super clamp or something that will allow it to spin, and test on the other hand with the expand if the roll works as intended.

For reference purposes here are my shots of the PVC n cardboard core.

IMAGE: http://i.imgur.com/PFmM7.jpg
Expan > PVC

IMAGE: http://i.imgur.com/I0zJ4.jpg
PVC <2"

IMAGE: http://i.imgur.com/PsHkm.jpg
Cardboard core >2"

Another thing i realized is that if the alu core isn't tight enough fitting, then it wouldn't do its intended purpose of stopping the sag no?

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tetrode
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Dec 11, 2011 23:16 as a reply to  @ Csae's post |  #703

While we're thinking out loud, here's my offering:

I think one good solution for the sagging BG paper problem would be unseamed aluminum tubing with an OD of 53 - 54mm. The cardboard cores I have on hand measure approx. 53.5mm ID. Depending on tubing wall thickness, a 54mm OD tube might be compliant enough to allow easy insertion into the cardboard core. An undersized tube (~53mm OD) might be compliant enough to increase in diameter when the Expan brackets are installed. A quick CAD rendering of a 9-foot tube, 53mm in diameter, with 1mm wall thickness:

IMAGE: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7026/6497339915_27b58f4a9e_o.jpg

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Dave ­ Jr
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Dec 11, 2011 23:29 |  #704

[QUOTE=Csae;13530108]

Why not just try it half alu/half expan prior to cutting it up? just to see if you can get the expan to grip the inner alu core while still expanding to grip the outer cardboard ? ?

Yes, I absolutely would test before cutting, just don't want to dis-assemble it all right now as I have it working well.

I can see this being tested prior to cutting with no problem, it would still need to be cut to have Both expans in since i believe the alucore is slightly longer then the paper roll, but it should be able to be tested on the ground prior to any cutting.

Take the roll down completely remove both expans, slide in the alu core to about half of where the expan would be inside the cardboard core, this will make the alucore extend significantly beyond the other end of the paper. Now try tightening the expand inside both the alucore and cardboard (not responsible if you break something) if you feel its tight enough, you should now be able to clip the super extended alucore on a super clamp or something that will allow it to spin, and test on the other hand with the expand if the roll works as intended.

Yes, that was my plan, we're on the same page. Still hoping the wrap solution will hold over time.

Another thing i realized is that if the alu core isn't tight enough fitting, then it wouldn't do its intended purpose of stopping the sag no?

Yes, I think it will still prevent sagging. The size difference is maybe a 1/4" diameter, so it could sag that amount in the middle before coming to rest on the alu-core. I don't it would be perceptible sag.


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Csae
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Dec 11, 2011 23:35 |  #705

tetrode wrote in post #13530187 (external link)
While we're thinking out loud, here's my offering:

I think one good solution for the sagging BG paper problem would be unseamed aluminum tubing with an OD of 53 - 54mm. The cardboard cores I have on hand measure approx. 53.5mm ID. Depending on tubing wall thickness, a 54mm OD tube might be compliant enough to allow easy insertion into the cardboard core. An undersized tube (~53mm OD) might be compliant enough to increase in diameter when the Expan brackets are installed. A quick CAD rendering of a 9-foot tube, 53mm in diameter, with 1mm wall thickness:

QUOTED IMAGE

Dave F.

Ooh, a very interesting idea, its like aaron's idea but "inside" the core, this would most probably work.
How much would something like that cost, and if its compliant enough to be squeezed inside, but tightened by the expans would it be strong enough to prevent the sag?

Dave Jr wrote in post #13530229 (external link)
Yes, I think it will still prevent sagging. The size difference is maybe a 1/4" diameter, so it could sag that amount in the middle before coming to rest on the alu-core. I don't it would be perceptible sag.

My rolls are all as saggy as a granny's... well you get what i mean ;) The PVC slides inside freely with no friction, sadly.

I've had 1 roll for about 2 years in a rather humid environment with nothing but the expans holding it up with no weight clipping the bottom, its sagged a fair amount due to all of this :(

I hear you about the pain of taking them down, i just have mine down already due to a technical miscalculation on my set-up, my rolls are jacked together quite McGuyver style and i failed to include the supporting steel pipe change in diameter due to hot/cold so the whole thing almost came crashing down the other week, luckily some safety i had set kicked in and stopped any damage but i had to take everything down. Not sure what i'm gonna do now, i can put them back up temporarily if needed, but it would likely threaten to come crashing down in a couple weeks all over again.


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Grip 101: Show your booms and grip hardware in action!
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