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Thread started 14 Dec 2011 (Wednesday) 22:48
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Fearmongering public -- giving photographers a bad name

 
Bosscat
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Dec 19, 2011 16:09 |  #61

Hogloff wrote in post #13569939 (external link)
I am surprised so many people would let the law rule them rather than common sense.

Strange, but any time my father ever tried arguing with a Cop that he used common sense over following the law, he got a ticket.


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Hogloff
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Dec 19, 2011 17:07 |  #62
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Bosscat wrote in post #13569993 (external link)
Strange, but any time my father ever tried arguing with a Cop that he used common sense over following the law, he got a ticket.

Yep, there are consquences you need to live with. I take it you never drive faster than the posted speed? Never jay walk? Never not feed the meter as you go in the store for 5 minutes?

These are all against the law, but people disobey them everyday, using their own common sense to dictate their actions.

Now all I am saying is that we need to use common sense in dictating our actions...even though we are fully within the law. I always put the shoe on the other foot. If I would not want something done to me, then I won't do the same to someone else. I would not want someone taking photos of my family without my permission, so I always ask permission to take photos of strangers. Laws don't need to dictate this...again, just common sense.




  
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gh ­ patriot
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Dec 19, 2011 18:57 |  #63

Hogloff wrote in post #13570236 (external link)
Yep, there are consquences you need to live with. I take it you never drive faster than the posted speed? Never jay walk? Never not feed the meter as you go in the store for 5 minutes?

These are all against the law, but people disobey them everyday, using their own common sense to dictate their actions.

Now all I am saying is that we need to use common sense in dictating our actions...even though we are fully within the law. I always put the shoe on the other foot. If I would not want something done to me, then I won't do the same to someone else. I would not want someone taking photos of my family without my permission, so I always ask permission to take photos of strangers. Laws don't need to dictate this...again, just common sense.

The fact is its not against the law to photograph people or things in public. Most people in this world and in this forum would most likely stop taking photos of a person if asked politely. Our point is that the freedom to do so is more important than someone else's feelings.

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Hogloff
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Dec 19, 2011 19:31 |  #64
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gh patriot wrote in post #13570788 (external link)
The fact is its not against the law to photograph people or things in public. Most people in this world and in this forum would most likely stop taking photos of a person if asked politely. Our point is that the freedom to do so is more important than someone else's feelings.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." --- Thomas Jefferson

That is exactly what I am talking about. I understand it is ones freedom to shoot other people and I truly don't want to limit our freedoms. I am saying that at times courtesy regarding others is more important than your freedom ( your right) to photograph them. It seems like some people on this board think that since it is their right to photograph people, they can leave the courtesy behind and disregard their desires and keep on shooting. I just happen to respect others and will ask their permissions before engaging in taking their photos.




  
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nathancarter
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Dec 19, 2011 20:34 |  #65

Hogloff wrote in post #13569578 (external link)
Yep, there are times when people have to take things into their own hands and if you would continue shooting my kids or my wife after I asked you not too, that would be when I take things into my hands.

Again, I ask...would you stop photographing my kids after I ask you not to? The answer to this will tell me lots about you.

Me, personally? As a general rule, I don't photograph people without asking their permission first. And I certainly would stop if asked.

But this discussion isn't about what I personally would do; it's about the distinct difference between what's legal and what's polite/ethical/courteo​us. They often overlap, but they sometimes don't.


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elrey2375
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Dec 19, 2011 20:43 |  #66

Jimbers wrote in post #13557457 (external link)
there is no pretension of art in that kind of video-taping.

So spying on your every move is perfectly okay with you but the pretext of art sends you right over the edge? That hardly makes sense.


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elrey2375
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Dec 19, 2011 20:46 |  #67

Hogloff wrote in post #13570906 (external link)
That is exactly what I am talking about. I understand it is ones freedom to shoot other people and I truly don't want to limit our freedoms. I am saying that at times courtesy regarding others is more important than your freedom ( your right) to photograph them. It seems like some people on this board think that since it is their right to photograph people, they can leave the courtesy behind and disregard their desires and keep on shooting. I just happen to respect others and will ask their permissions before engaging in taking their photos.

This is one of the few things in this whole thread that made sense. Yes, it is your right to take a person's pic in public but at some point, common courtesy and your right will intersect and you must decide if being rude and exercising your rights are worth throwing over common courtesy for. Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean you have to do it to prove the right exists.


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JWright
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Dec 19, 2011 21:17 as a reply to  @ elrey2375's post |  #68

Bosscat wrote in post #13563828 (external link)
Maybe if you waited for the page to fully load, you would see you are dead wrong.

I find your tone a little insulting. I did let it load fully. (See below.)

Shadow on the Door wrote in post #13564033 (external link)
the first link?? The page is fully loaded, it's definitely black on grey viewing on google chrome.

EDIT, okay, white bg loads in firefox, but the site obviously needs work.

I use FF and it loaded black on grey. When I opened it in Internet Explorer, it came up with a white background. I don't normally use IE. I did this only after people said it came up differently for them.

Obviously, the designer has not optimized the site for all browsers.


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AtomicPenguin
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Dec 19, 2011 21:49 as a reply to  @ JWright's post |  #69
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Hogloff wrote in post #13565998 (external link)
I guess I need to give up. We somehow are not speaking the same language.

I guess you would just keep shooting someone that does not want to be photographed...just because the law says you can? You and me have much different morals.

Hogloff wrote in post #13569578 (external link)
Yep, there are times when people have to take things into their own hands and if you would continue shooting my kids or my wife after I asked you not too, that would be when I take things into my hands.

Again, I ask...would you stop photographing my kids after I ask you not to? The answer to this will tell me lots about you.

Typical liberal, "the law is what I say it is when it suits me."

What happens when exercising a constitutional right pisses you off? You don't like it when I carry my offensive to you protest signs in public, so I'm supposed to bow to your version of common sense, you are afraid of guns so I'm not allowed to carry mine in public, you don't like slanty eyed asians so they should just stay home, or black people, or people who wear sneakers....where does it end when society is supposed to consider your skewed version of reality and act accordingly?

The law is the line, it isn't what you think it ought to be.

Your expectation of courtesy is not everyones...your expectations may be reasonable, but if we allow yours to rule, then why not mine, or the guy over there? How long before someone's version of courtesy seriously impacts my constitutional rights? The cops think it is common courtesy not to record them in public, and enforce their version of reality with extrajudicial punishments and malicious prosecutions. You want that to be the force behind every joe's version of common courtesy?


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Hogloff
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Dec 19, 2011 21:51 |  #70
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AtomicPenguin wrote in post #13571436 (external link)
Typical liberal, "the law is what I say it is when it suits me."

What happens when exercising a constitutional right pisses you off? You don't like it when I carry my offensive to you protest signs in public, so I'm supposed to bow to your version of common sense, you are afraid of guns so I'm not allowed to carry mine in public, you don't like slanty eyed asians so they should just stay home, or black people, or people who wear sneakers....where does it end when society is supposed to consider your skewed version of reality and act accordingly?

The law is the line, it isn't what you think it ought to be.

Yeah, good luck with that. Big brother definitely has you in mind.




  
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AtomicPenguin
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Dec 19, 2011 21:55 |  #71
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Hogloff wrote in post #13571449 (external link)
Yeah, good luck with that. Big brother definitely has you in mind.

Press 2 for English? What?


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Bosscat
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Dec 19, 2011 21:58 |  #72

JWright wrote in post #13571298 (external link)
I find your tone a little insulting. I did let it load fully. (See below.)

Yet it was perfectly A OK for you to refer to the site designer as a "moron" back at the bottom of page one in this thread.


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TheBurningCrown
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Dec 20, 2011 00:49 as a reply to  @ Bosscat's post |  #73

AtomicPenguin wrote in post #13571436 (external link)
Typical liberal, "the law is what I say it is when it suits me."

Now that I find insulting :confused:.

AtomicPenguin wrote in post #13571436 (external link)
*Long post*

Agreed.


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Amamba
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Dec 20, 2011 07:27 |  #74

RDKirk wrote in post #13558747 (external link)
What the group considers "the right thing to do" and "common sense"--especially when unsupported by law--is very frequently morally heinous. In a democracy especially, the fact that it's unsupported by law is usually a clue that there is a severe moral disadvantage.

Not everything that is legal is ethical. The law is not perfect, either. It's, at best, an attempt to compromise between public safety and individual's rights. Often not very well thought through, either. The law is often designed with a sole purpose to placate the constituents and win brownie points for re-election. If there's a couple of well publicized cases of some child molester taking photos of kids in public places before attacking them, and someone is determined enough to "make a change" you can bet there will be a law prohibiting this. Even though the moral implications will remain unchanged, the law will be different. Just look at the patchwork of gun control laws all over the place, most have no rhyme or reason other than being adopted as a poorly thought through knee-jerk reaction to some shooting that would likely happen with or without that law in place.

You live in a real world and have to accept it. Taking photos of other people's kids in public without their consent or especially after they object would not end up well for you, unless you like confrontations and having to explain yourself to a police officer.

elrey2375 wrote in post #13571168 (external link)
This is one of the few things in this whole thread that made sense. Yes, it is your right to take a person's pic in public but at some point, common courtesy and your right will intersect and you must decide if being rude and exercising your rights are worth throwing over common courtesy for. Just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean you have to do it to prove the right exists.

Very well said and very true. bw!

nathancarter wrote in post #13569323 (external link)
You would get in the photographer's face ... and do what? Take "the law" into your own hands? Remember, the photographer is not doing anything illegal by photographing you and your children while you're in a public space.

There's a difference between "legal" and "courteous." Just because you don't like it, just because you might think it's rude, creepy, and downright obnoxious, doesn't mean it's illegal.

Not being a law expert, I still think that if you keep photographing someone after they explicitly ask you to stop, in many states you can be charged with harassment. The laws often overlap, and what may be legal in one circumstance will become illegal in another.

Besides, the law will be changed if enough people object to it. I recall reading somewhere that a group of gun-right supporters in CA decided to hold a meeting in a Starbucks with everyone openly carrying a firearm on their hip (while carrying a concealed firearm is illegal without permit, carrying openly is legal as long as you're not driving in the car). This resulted in a bunch of ordinary citizens freaking out and a change in law (don't recall if that was a state law or city ordinance).

Just serves to illustrate that Democracy is all about balancing the wishes of majority vs rights of minority. Acting stupidly and self-righteously when knowing perfectly well that the majority of other people would be scared or offended with it will often result in that balance adjusted and your rights being curbed. And please don't compare it to civil right movement, it's really not the same.


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gh ­ patriot
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Dec 20, 2011 07:43 |  #75

Amamba wrote in post #13572941 (external link)
Very well said and very true. bw!


Yes but there are some here that would love to make it a crime for sure. This isn't an argument of being courteous or not. I for one in most situations would not photograph someone if they politely asked me not to. That however is not the point. The ability to photograph people in a public space and the right to be able to do so is what we are defending.

We dont have free speech laws to protect polite conversations, we have free speech laws to protect against things that are potentially offensive. It may not be right to offend someone but the right to be able to do so is what the law protects.


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Fearmongering public -- giving photographers a bad name
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