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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EOS Digital Cameras 
Thread started 23 Dec 2011 (Friday) 00:46
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jase1125
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Dec 25, 2011 11:34 |  #181

mafoo wrote in post #13596897 (external link)
In the short term, I agree with you. In the long term (20-50 years), I think FF will be the answer (if we still think of photography in the same terms in 50 years).

When CD's came out, as with DVD's, the decoder chips in the players were part of what differentiated one from the other. Today, the quality of that sub component has gotten so inexpensive to make, and making one "better" then the other has become impossible for anyone to tell the difference, that no one even cares about that subcomponent of the players.

Now with Blu-Ray players, no one cares what the components are. They just care about capability.

One day cameras will be the same. Digital photography is in it's infancy. Sensor size is only important because everything around it works better with a smaller one. When that's not true (and some day it will be), they will be as large as posable. (unless some other way of collecting light makes that pointless)

You forget one main reason why crop won't go away: glass. It is cheaper to make Efs lenses than ef lenses. One is not better than the other. They are different.


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BXPhoto
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Dec 25, 2011 11:47 |  #182

rick_reno wrote in post #13597013 (external link)
While the direction Canon has been moving in might not make sense, they continue to sell a lot of cameras.

True that.

Jase1125 - i totally agree with you that the d700 trumps my 5dmkii in almost everyway. The only thing holding me back is the MP department as I do alot of print work as of lately. But the IQ, AF, build quality all trump my 5d and 7d and my 60d doesnt even need to be mentioned as it no way compares to the d700. You would have to own both a 7d and a 5d mkII to have a system which is as useable as a d700. So now lets hope that Canon is listening and release a 5dmkIII with a similar AF to the 1dx in a smaller body. For around 2800-3400 and it would be awesome! Nikons use of sony's sensors has been an awesome move. Just look at how the nex-5n trumps the canon crop sensors in noise and even sharpness. No AA filter in a d800 would be amazing.


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h14nha
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Dec 25, 2011 12:48 |  #183

Hogloff wrote in post #13592749 (external link)
The thing I don't understand is the camps. Why? Why is it that people need to defend their gear. Let your photos do the talking, not your gear.

This thread has 13 pages so far, and zero pictures from either 'camp' to prove/disprove their differences. If I passionately believed in my argument then I would be posting pictures to back it up. ( Hogloff I'm not quoting you for any other reason, than the sentence about letting the photo's do the talking )
In another thread the other day a poster was criticised for his dogged determination to elicit answers about a T3i and a 5d. He wasn't going to be dissuaded off track, he asked for pictures and never got them. People provide links to sites but NO ONE is prepared to post 100% crops of their shots to prove their theory. You have to ask yourself why.
People say they can't be bothered, haven't the inclination, don't have to prove it to nobody etc etc, I cannot for the life of me, understand why someone wouldn't walk the walk. I hate it when someone gets a 5dii, makes all sorts or frankly rediculous claims about how it slaughters the crops IQ, then dissapears into the woodwork when asked to prove it. I mean, if its so clear then why not enlighten the rest of us..........
This is normally when this type of thread dies :lol:


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BXPhoto
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Dec 25, 2011 13:14 |  #184

Because the majority of shooters who shoot for money and use FF gear have owned/gone from crop bodies. I simply dont have the time nor care to setup my 60d, 7d, 5d mkII's on tripods and set them all up to the same settings then to shoot at inanimate objects and then to go into PS and put in 100% CROPS just for you to say, well its only "kinda better". The reality is we use them because of Low Light capabilities, better DOF, lack of noise, and yes, that minimum difference in image quality is worth every penny. Especially to our paying customers. FF is better than crop in IQ end of story. The difference is when people are upgrading camera bodies. Canon just seems to stiff people in one way or another it seems as of lately.


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JeffreyG
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Dec 25, 2011 13:19 |  #185

h14nha wrote in post #13597314 (external link)
If I passionately believed in my argument then I would be posting pictures to back it up.

1:1 or 1:2 views (depending on the pixel count and intended print size are useful for evaluating images with an eye to how well they will print once you are used to a certain body and have a history with it.

1:1 or 1:2 views can be used to compare two different lenses as well, because they allow a detailed view online at the same size.

1:1 or 1:2 views are not very good for comparing between two bodies in my opinion, because unless the bodies have the same pixel count, the images will not represent the same final output size. One really should look at prints of the kinds of subjects one shoots at the print sizes one plans to make.

I'm not saying 1:1 views would be totally useless for this, but I suspect if people started posting them we would find more heat than light.


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Hogloff
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Dec 25, 2011 13:21 |  #186
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h14nha wrote in post #13597314 (external link)
This thread has 13 pages so far, and zero pictures from either 'camp' to prove/disprove their differences. If I passionately believed in my argument then I would be posting pictures to back it up. ( Hogloff I'm not quoting you for any other reason, than the sentence about letting the photo's do the talking )
In another thread the other day a poster was criticised for his dogged determination to elicit answers about a T3i and a 5d. He wasn't going to be dissuaded off track, he asked for pictures and never got them. People provide links to sites but NO ONE is prepared to post 100% crops of their shots to prove their theory. You have to ask yourself why.
People say they can't be bothered, haven't the inclination, don't have to prove it to nobody etc etc, I cannot for the life of me, understand why someone wouldn't walk the walk. I hate it when someone gets a 5dii, makes all sorts or frankly rediculous claims about how it slaughters the crops IQ, then dissapears into the woodwork when asked to prove it. I mean, if its so clear then why not enlighten the rest of us..........
This is normally when this type of thread dies :lol:

I think I already said it in this thread, I don't shoot photos to be displayed on the screen at 100% magnification. That is just for bit heads. My images make it to print, usually at large sizes. This is where I judge the capabilities of the different cameras I own. This is where I see the difference in sharpness, noise, colours and smooth gradiations between my 5d2 and my 7d. I have absolutely zero interest at looking at those images on my computer as that is not what I shoot for.

I really need to ask you why is it the crop users are always trying to compare themselves to the full frame users. They are different formats with different results...just live with it. I take photos with my 7d, I just know it's limits as far as what I want to print and use it when I need a responsive camera where the photos will not be printed large.




  
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Veemac
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Dec 25, 2011 14:15 |  #187

h14nha wrote in post #13597314 (external link)
...I cannot for the life of me, understand why someone wouldn't walk the walk. I hate it when someone gets a 5dii, makes all sorts or frankly rediculous claims about how it slaughters the crops IQ, then dissapears into the woodwork when asked to prove it. I mean, if its so clear then why not enlighten the rest of us...

What I don't understand is why anybody cares, and why every one of these FF vs. crop threads goes 10+ pages of hashing over the same old stuff (from both sides). If you (the collective "you", not "you" specifically) have a crop and are happy with the photos it takes, leave it at that and enjoy it. If you think there's an advantage to be had from full frame, open up the wallet and buy one and be happy with it.

I own a crop and have absolutely zero desire to upgrade to FF. I fully understand the advantages and disadvantages of both formats and I know that, at least for me, the upgrade to FF would have minimal impact on my images. If other people see a marked difference and feel it was worth it to spend the money to upgrade, I'm happy for them - to each their own. I don't see a point in demanding they prove their images are better than mine because I don't care if they are or not...if it works for them, far be it from me to rain on their parade. I'm satisfied with what I have for now and if I ever get to the point that I see a clear advantage for ME in having a FF sensor, I'll upgrade - I don't need "proof" from anybody else to convince me. I'm certainly not going to follow the "sheeple" mentality and upgrade to FF just so I can put it in my sig and be part of the "in" crowd.

People get so wrapped up in gear that photography itself becomes secondary. I think it's been proven ad nauseum that both crop and FF cameras (and P&S as well) are capable of capturing great images in the right hands. Each has their own feature sets, advantages and disadvantages. There obviously is no 100% conclusive evidence that FF is always better than crop all the time for everybody no matter what - if there was, it would be out there by now and the crop format would be abandoned by consumers and camera manufacturers alike.

There are certainly photographers who have specific needs and reasons why a full-frame camera is the ideal solution for them. There are also a far greater number of photographers who aren't satisfied with the images they're getting from their crop bodies (during their first six months or so of owning a DSLR), have read all the FF hype and are just positive that getting that 5DII will magically transform their poorly-composed, poorly-lit, poorly-exposed and poorly-focused images into 100% gallery worthy masterpieces. "Yeah, look at the fine detail in this 200% crop - you can count my daughter's eyelashes!" Unfortunately upon zooming out and looking at the entire image, daughter is in dappled sunlight and looks like a burn victim, everybody else in the picture is out of focus, dad is halfway out of the right side of the frame, the background is completely blown out, mom has a tree branch growing out of her head and little brother is kneeling in front of a pile of dog doo...."Yeah yeah, okay - but wouldja just look at these 200% crops?!?!?! Awesome!!!!!"


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jase1125
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Dec 25, 2011 14:31 |  #188

^^^^

ROTFLOA


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FlyingPhotog
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Dec 25, 2011 14:40 |  #189

Veemac wrote in post #13597524 (external link)
"Yeah, look at the fine detail in this 200% crop - you can count my daughter's eyelashes!" Unfortunately upon zooming out and looking at the entire image, daughter is in dappled sunlight and looks like a burn victim, everybody else in the picture is out of focus, dad is halfway out of the right side of the frame, the background is completely blown out, mom has a tree branch growing out of her head and little brother is kneeling in front of a pile of dog doo...."Yeah yeah, okay - but wouldja just look at these 200% crops?!?!?! Awesome!!!!!"

bw! :lol:


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BXPhoto
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Dec 25, 2011 15:03 |  #190

LMAO awesome.... Now go out and just take pictures...


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bassman69
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Dec 25, 2011 15:11 as a reply to  @ FlyingPhotog's post |  #191

I am a professional photographer for 7 years now. Tons of magazine covers and layouts, in fact, I have a cover out right now sold all over the US. I have owned a 5D but currently own a 60D and T2i. Lenses? An 18-55 IS kit lens and a "nifty fifty" 50mm 1.8 Most pros are pretty surprised to find out I have shot national magazine covers, ads and yes, even billboards with a prosumer camera and a kit lens. You have to know your equipment. When I shoot outdoors in natural light, I am obviously not going to use that 18-55, the 50 works perfectly well. Indoors with strobes shooting f/9-f/13 at 200 with 100 ISO, the kit lens works just fine. Bottom line is you do not need a full frame camera or $2k lenses to take great photos. The same way that buying a $3k guitar won't make you play like Clapton. Sure, I would like a 5DII, but I don't NEED one, most people don't either. People get too caught up in the specs when they should be working on the technical aspect of photography like proper use of lighting and how to take a photo. Just my 2 cents.




  
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Ronny ­ Geenen
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Dec 25, 2011 15:35 |  #192

I have a 40D, 2 S and 2 F L lenses. I want a second body beside the 40D. Is a 7D more closely related to the 40D than the 5dMKII? And because of that relationship, is it not better to buy the 5dMKII?
Like to here your opinion and thank you.




  
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Hogloff
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Dec 25, 2011 15:37 |  #193
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Ronny Geenen wrote in post #13597733 (external link)
I have a 40D, 2 S and 2 F L lenses. I want a second body beside the 40D. Is a 7D more closely related to the 40D than the 5dMKII? And because of that relationship, is it not better to buy the 5dMKII?
Like to here your opinion and thank you.

Depends on what you shoot. I have a 5d2 and 7d and they make a great pair, but I shoot everything from landscapes to wildlife and sports.




  
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Higgs ­ Boson
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Dec 25, 2011 15:38 |  #194

My gear is listed in my sig. My pictures are terrible. I have no doubt they would be even worse with a stinkin crop sensor and L free glass.


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FlyingPhotog
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Dec 25, 2011 15:41 |  #195

Ronny Geenen wrote in post #13597733 (external link)
I have a 40D, 2 S and 2 F L lenses. I want a second body beside the 40D. Is a 7D more closely related to the 40D than the 5dMKII? And because of that relationship, is it not better to buy the 5dMKII?
Like to here your opinion and thank you.

IMO, it depends on whether you want something akin to a real backup or you simply want to have a second camera.

Buy the 7D and your 40D won't force you to reconsider how you frame shots because they're both APS-C sensors. Buy the 5DMkII and anytime you have to reach for the 40D, everything will be framed tighter and have different DOF characteristics.

Your call of course...


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