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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 22 Jan 2012 (Sunday) 09:10
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Are Amateurs destroying Photography

 
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Jan 22, 2012 17:14 |  #31

dtufino wrote in post #13747535 (external link)
The question is... is photography dying in the professional sense?

Didn't studio photographers have the same complaint in 1901 when George Eastman started selling the Brownie? And in 1939 when Argus started selling the C3? And in 1948 when Edwin Land started selling the Polaroid Model 95? And in 1963 when Kodak started selling the Instamatic? And...




  
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dannequin
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Jan 22, 2012 17:55 |  #32

Just because you buy a DSLR, doesn't mean you're a professional, HOWEVER, it does show interest that you may want to become one, one day. But people just go out and snap photos and edit and then rinse and repeat... there's no learning, no workshops, no hanging around other photographers... and that's the best way to learn.

I think a lot of it has to do with confusion too, when we all started out, sure we had some bad photos, but WE took the blame, and said this wasn't good enough and kept pursuing -- and I can confidently say that I'm not even there yet -- I'm still evolving. But the fact that I keep going and going and wanting to further myself in this field, makes all the difference in work. I wish more people felt this way, it's sad that they don't.

I can shoot with a strobe, mid range zoom and do a little bit of editing, and yet someone can walk in front of me with their iPhone and snap a picture, throw a filter on it and call it good. The lack of understanding, respect AND acknowledgement is what annoys me.


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Jan 22, 2012 18:07 as a reply to  @ dannequin's post |  #33

Professionals sign contracts. Amateurs do not.

The only way to limit entry now is to require a state license to operate a photography business.


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bespoke
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Jan 22, 2012 18:34 |  #34

if you are good and you have good business sense then you should have no problems. photography is more popular than ever and it's so easy to get your work out for everyone to see.


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Jan 22, 2012 18:47 |  #35

S.Horton wrote in post #13749898 (external link)
Professionals sign contracts. Amateurs do not.

And signing a contract does not make you good.

Professionals get paid, Amateurs do not. Getting paid doesn't make you good.

S.Horton wrote in post #13749898 (external link)
The only way to limit entry now is to require a state license to operate a photography business.

Just what we need, more regulation.

Perhaps a minimum age and educational requirements as well.

I think all "professional" businesses should be regulated by each State and require testing and licensing. There would probably be a significant reduction in competition among serious photographers who want to make a living doing something they enjoy.
Oh Wait, what if your photography business required you to travel out of state? Then you would also have to be licensed in that state as well. ;)


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S.Horton
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Jan 22, 2012 19:31 as a reply to  @ tkerr's post |  #36

What does licensing have to do with regulation?

Your industry is politically weak, or you would not suffer unlimited entry to your market.

Contrast that wih lawyers, CPAs, hairdressers, carpenters, contractors, teachers....

In Germany, I think basically the same thing happens when an apprenticeship is a requirement to enter a craft as a professional.

In short, amateurs wreck your business because they can. They can because you let them in without any requirements.


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tkerr
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Jan 22, 2012 19:52 |  #37

S.Horton wrote in post #13750285 (external link)
What does licensing have to do with regulation?

Requiring a license is a form of regulating who can or cannot conduct said business. License = Regulation

S.Horton wrote in post #13750285 (external link)
In short, amateurs wreck your business because they can. They can because you let them in without any requirements.

Here, I think that's what people refer to as free market capitalism.


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S.Horton
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Jan 22, 2012 20:24 |  #38

Free market is a myth.

It is heavily regulated, and license requirements are common.

A license is a tax required to be certified. You get a document for yourself.

A regulation is a body of law. Typically inspections and permitting are the compliance documents under the law.

Think drivers license vs. state emissions inspection to comply with environmental law.

Question is, why are licenses required to be a teacher, hairdresser, practice law, be a contractor, operate a pizza shop, a car wash, or drive a car, and not photography?

This is not so cut and dry.

In the case of car dealers, where I live, you can sell up to six cars a year as an individual.

Beyond that, or if you have a lot, you must be a licensed dealer. Why? Well, turns out, dealers don't want everyone with a checkbook as a comoetitor. So, it requires a license.

Photographers could do the same thing. They won't because they don't have the money and pull to change it.

Very simple things could go a long way. For example, short of regulation, a smart PR effort by your professional organization to require apprenticeships to be nationally certified coupled with telling organizations like schools what the risks are when hiring or allowing any access to school property by uncertified people. If they also tell the insurance companies, and require background checks as part of their private certification, what would happen? Hmmmmm. You might like that idea, because it is essentially using the free market to restrict access.

It isn't that hard to imagine ways to make photography the profession it should be. I really would like to help.

By the way, there is an SEC law which requires all investors in private businesses meet a wealth test. Why is that? Too bad we have no evidence that they don't want me and five neighbors to compete with them for investment in someone's business.

Licensing and regulation were wrtten by and for people. People had interests. Those interests are in that law. And if you look deep enough, it makes almost no sense. Unless, of course, you're on the right side of that protection.


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JeffreyG
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Jan 22, 2012 20:35 |  #39

S.Horton wrote in post #13749898 (external link)
The only way to limit entry now is to require a state license to operate a photography business.

He's right, but this will never happen. Photographers are too disorganized.

For starters, don't take this as some sort of regulation and 'big government' discussion. Lawyers, doctors, hairdressers and teachers all are regulated and have significant barriers to entry because that is exactly how they want it.

To be a lawyer (one example), you must graduate from law school and you must pass the bar exam. This is how lawyers restrict entry to their profession and this is how they prop up their fees. Without such restriction, legal help would be of much more varied quality, and also of much lower cost.

I just don't see photographers ever being so organized. I still think it is a wonder that hairdressers are.


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RandyMN
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Jan 22, 2012 20:39 |  #40

S.Horton wrote in post #13749898 (external link)
Professionals sign contracts. Amateurs do not.

The only way to limit entry now is to require a state license to operate a photography business.

This is not true, at least not by definitions I've read so far. In those, I do not make my living off photography, however, I will not touch a wedding without a contract. It protects myself and the client.

And you think amateurs are destroying professionals? No, professionals can only destroy themselves by not adapting to the market.

Is the market changing? Yes, whether you like it or not it is. And regulation is not the answer and neither is licensing. Competition is part of life!




  
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Jan 22, 2012 20:40 |  #41

YES. YES THEY ARE. BURN THEM AT THE STAKE. BURN THEM ALL.


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Jan 22, 2012 21:09 |  #42

L.J.G. wrote in post #13749310 (external link)
OK, here is a scenario.

You are a travel agency attached to a worldwide airline. You want spectacular holiday shots from many locations all around the world to advertise in glossy holiday brochures.

How do you get them? Pay a pro and send him/her all around the world or hire multiple pros from all around the world? No. You advertise a photo contest with a prize of a free flight and maybe a night or 2 (or 3) accommodation.

You advertise to “send in your holiday snaps”. If the prize is good enough you will end up with literally thousands of images from all around the globe. Out of the probable hundred thousand or more images entered you will get hundreds if not thousands of usable images that will do for all your advertising needs for the next year or 3.

Cost? A lot less than paying and sending a pro around the world, or hiring multiple pros from all around the world. So, who do you blame in this instance? Is the amateur undermining the pro, or is the company undermining the pro?

This is similar to the National TV Weather Network here in Canada, that gives people a chance to upload weather related photos and videos to their site for display on TV. People are supplying them with content, while they spend next to nothing. People get a warm fuzzy feeling from seeing their photos on TV.


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Jan 22, 2012 21:24 |  #43
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JeffreyG wrote in post #13750578 (external link)
He's right, but this will never happen. Photographers are too disorganized.

For starters, don't take this as some sort of regulation and 'big government' discussion. Lawyers, doctors, hairdressers and teachers all are regulated and have significant barriers to entry because that is exactly how they want it.

To be a lawyer (one example), you must graduate from law school and you must pass the bar exam. This is how lawyers restrict entry to their profession and this is how they prop up their fees. Without such restriction, legal help would be of much more varied quality, and also of much lower cost.

I just don't see photographers ever being so organized. I still think it is a wonder that hairdressers are.


Hmm....fyi, photography is an art form. :) I don't believe anyone needs a license to become an artist. Also, Canon needs to rise the price of their bodies to create a higher level of entry into the market. As long as the tools of the trade is affordable, you can't prevent people from trying to enter into market.


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Jan 22, 2012 21:59 |  #44

S.Horton wrote in post #13750539 (external link)
In the case of car dealers, where I live, you can sell up to six cars a year as an individual.

Beyond that, or if you have a lot, you must be a licensed dealer. Why? Well, turns out, dealers don't want everyone with a checkbook as a comoetitor. So, it requires a license.

Actually its not the dealers, its the states that dont want people selling cars as a dealer out of their own homes. Would you like to see 7-10 cars for sale on your neighbors lawn? And as per WI laws with dealers, they must either have a repair facility or have an agreement with a 3rd party repair shop.

And if you are running a legit business you have all the proper permits and business licenses anyways. Quite honestly I wouldnt be looking at craigslist for a wedding photographer anyways.

BTW hairdressers have to be license due to the chemicals they apply to PEOPLE. I had to be licensed to do pest control since some of the chemicals I used can hurt people if applied incorrectly. Can you do your own pest control? Yes. Did it upset me if someone tried to get rid of fleas, roaches, ants, etc themselves? Nope.

Also we should limit high performance cars to people who have or had held professional road racing licenses (ie SCCA or IMSA.). No reason an amateur driver needs to be driving a Viper, Corvettes, Hyundai Genesis Coupe, CTS-V, Camaro, Challenger, Mustang or anything else over 200hp and also limit them to 65mph on the street. :D Hell the left lanes of the interstates should be reserved for licensed racers only.


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mondayshift
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Jan 22, 2012 22:08 |  #45

YamahaRob wrote in post #13751107 (external link)
Actually its not the dealers, its the states that dont want people selling cars as a dealer out of their own homes. Would you like to see 7-10 cars for sale on your neighbors lawn? And as per WI laws with dealers, they must either have a repair facility or have an agreement with a 3rd party repair shop.

And if you are running a legit business you have all the proper permits and business licenses anyways. Quite honestly I wouldnt be looking at craigslist for a wedding photographer anyways.

BTW hairdressers have to be license due to the chemicals they apply to PEOPLE. I had to be licensed to do pest control since some of the chemicals I used can hurt people if applied incorrectly. Can you do your own pest control? Yes. Did it upset me if someone tried to get rid of fleas, roaches, ants, etc themselves? Nope.

Also we should limit high performance cars to people who have or had held professional road racing licenses (ie SCCA or IMSA.). No reason an amateur driver needs to be driving a Viper, Corvettes, Hyundai Genesis Coupe, CTS-V, Camaro, Challenger, Mustang or anything else over 200hp and also limit them to 65mph on the street. :D Hell the left lanes of the interstates should be reserved for licensed racers only.

+1 nuff said abut this licensing.


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