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FORUMS Post Processing, Marketing & Presenting Photos The Business of Photography 
Thread started 19 Jan 2012 (Thursday) 13:42
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SmugMug: Better salesman than I!

 
BrandonSi
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Jan 24, 2012 14:33 |  #31

Rubi Jane wrote in post #13760304 (external link)
Just because you like shooting for fun and don't need to make money at it doesn't make it cool for you to screw up a market for some hard working photographers who DO need the money for mortgages, food etc. Hobbies are NOT jobs, but they can steal jobs.

Do everyone a favour, including yourself, and price yourself so you make money and you can feel good about contributing to the photography industry, not wrecking it.


That's a bunch of crap. Anyone could go buy a DSLR and some business cards and quit their job, and become a full-time photographer. In fact, that's what many people do, for better or worse.

If someone chooses to become a full-time photographer, and base their income and ability to pay their mortgage and eat, on that decision, it's on them to pull it off.

If some guy can come in and crank out a better product at a lower price than a full time "pro", the problem isn't the guy with the better product. If the full-time shooter is getting under-cut on pricing, then they need to do a better job of selling consumers on why they should pay a premium for the better quality.

No one is born a full-time photographer. It's a decision one makes. If they can't make ends meet, they should go get a different job. Just because someone shoots full time doesn't mean they have some special right to receive business from people.


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GadgetRick
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Jan 24, 2012 15:02 |  #32

Bosscat wrote in post #13760225 (external link)
People buy on price........Wal-Mart is eveidence of that.

A LOT of people buy on price but not EVERYONE. If so there would be no Nordstrom, no Lexus or a lot of other premium brands/stores. There are still people--a lot of them--who will spend the money for better quality (whether it's perceived or actual).

The question we all have to ask ourselves is what group of people we want to sell to and then market accordingly.




  
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Bosscat
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Jan 24, 2012 15:03 |  #33

BrandonSi wrote in post #13761205 (external link)
If some guy can come in and crank out a better product at a lower price than a full time "pro", the problem isn't the guy with the better product. If the full-time shooter is getting under-cut on pricing, then they need to do a better job of selling consumers on why they should pay a premium for the better quality.

The part time guy can always undercut, since he doesn't need to make much shooting, its his "Pashun" and his "Hobby"

He has his 9-5 to cover his daily living, whereas the full time shooter has to cover that along with equipment that the part timer subsidizes with his 9-5 and his pennies on the dollar photo profit.

Its cost of production.......plain and simple


Your camera is alot smarter than the "M" Zealots would have you believe

  
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GadgetRick
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Jan 24, 2012 15:20 |  #34

Rubi Jane wrote in post #13760304 (external link)
I have a Degree in Biology as well, actually B.Sc. majoring in Animal Nutrition, but it's the same, right? So I think I'll pose as an IT Systems Analyst, you know just for fun, ask my employer to pay me virtually nothing and see how long it'll take until then realize I do an "OK" job and they can hire more like me for less than they pay you. I think in a short period of time we can devalue IT System Analysts and we can have "fun" while doing it.

Just because you like shooting for fun and don't need to make money at it doesn't make it cool for you to screw up a market for some hard working photographers who DO need the money for mortgages, food etc. Hobbies are NOT jobs, but they can steal jobs.

Do everyone a favour, including yourself, and price yourself so you make money and you can feel good about contributing to the photography industry, not wrecking it.

Again, who are you or I or anyone else to tell someone how they have to price their products/services? If you're worried about someone doing this as a hobby taking all of your business, you're doing something wrong.

We tend to forget people can (and do) say photographers (for YEARS) have over-charged for what we do. Many people think it's ridiculous a photographer might charge $250 (or more) for an hour photo session with NO prints. And you know what? They have a point. That's a lot of money for someone out there scraping to get by. But that's not the customer I'm after. I'm looking for the people who have the disposable income to spend on photography.

You think the people willing to pay premium prices for a photographer are running to the hobbyists out there? Sorry, that's just not happening.

The place I practice jiu jitsu was doing a grand re-opening. I inquired with the owner about photographing the festivities. He told me he was getting photos for free from someone else. I (basically) told him he'll get what he's paying for (he got horrible photos). He didn't care. Guess what, I didn't get pissed and go after the guy who did the photos because the guy who owns the school isn't gonna spend the money on the photos. If he was going to, he would have this time (whether with me or another photog).

Stop blaming the wrong things for the industry changing.

The people who go to Walmart for their portraits are the people who are looking for the hobbyist for cheap/free photography work.




  
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GadgetRick
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Jan 24, 2012 15:22 |  #35

Bosscat wrote in post #13761367 (external link)
The part time guy can always undercut, since he doesn't need to make much shooting, its his "Pashun" and his "Hobby"

He has his 9-5 to cover his daily living, whereas the full time shooter has to cover that along with equipment that the part timer subsidizes with his 9-5 and his pennies on the dollar photo profit.

Its cost of production.......plain and simple

:::sigh:::

You're just not getting it. The guy isn't our problem. What he charges (or doesn't) isn't going to take business away from us. If they were going to do business with people like us, they wouldn't even consider hiring guys like that.




  
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GadgetRick
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Jan 24, 2012 15:23 |  #36

BrandonSi wrote in post #13761205 (external link)
That's a bunch of crap. Anyone could go buy a DSLR and some business cards and quit their job, and become a full-time photographer. In fact, that's what many people do, for better or worse.

If someone chooses to become a full-time photographer, and base their income and ability to pay their mortgage and eat, on that decision, it's on them to pull it off.

If some guy can come in and crank out a better product at a lower price than a full time "pro", the problem isn't the guy with the better product. If the full-time shooter is getting under-cut on pricing, then they need to do a better job of selling consumers on why they should pay a premium for the better quality.

No one is born a full-time photographer. It's a decision one makes. If they can't make ends meet, they should go get a different job. Just because someone shoots full time doesn't mean they have some special right to receive business from people.

Well-said. At least someone gets it.




  
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mpix345
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Jan 24, 2012 15:46 |  #37

GadgetRick wrote in post #13761511 (external link)
Well-said. At least someone gets it.

It is kind of scary how basic the concept is and yet how difficult it is for some folks to "get".

The business world faces this every day. Someone doing what you do for less. You learn to compete on price or provide additional value. Or you exit the market. Not much future in whining about some start up company with minimal overhead and no market position to protect eating your lunch on price.


  
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Mike ­ Deep
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Jan 24, 2012 16:09 |  #38

Just want to go back to page one here and say don't do that disable right-click stuff. It insults all but your most clueless visitors by telling them they're not allowed to access the context menu, which has many uses beyond "copy." Besides that, Firefox really doesn't give a damn about right-click blocking. It's not 1998 anymore.


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CSMFoto
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Jan 24, 2012 16:23 |  #39

Is this like the "middleman"? Middleman meaning if yhour customers so choose to buy a selected photograph that it'll send it to your bank account, and also out to the printer and they send it out automatically for you?


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Bosscat
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Jan 24, 2012 17:08 |  #40

GadgetRick wrote in post #13761505 (external link)
:::sigh:::

You're just not getting it. The guy isn't our problem. What he charges (or doesn't) isn't going to take business away from us. If they were going to do business with people like us, they wouldn't even consider hiring guys like that.

With the intenet today and text messeaging word spreads faster then ever.

Lets not forget that somehow or other brides today are demanding files on a CD or DVD

That started somewhere and spread......anything is possible......just sayin'


Your camera is alot smarter than the "M" Zealots would have you believe

  
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GadgetRick
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Jan 24, 2012 17:39 |  #41

Bosscat wrote in post #13762069 (external link)
With the intenet today and text messeaging word spreads faster then ever.

Lets not forget that somehow or other brides today are demanding files on a CD or DVD

That started somewhere and spread......anything is possible......just sayin'

Right, and I give files for EVERY shoot (I also increased my pricing when I did so and sell it as an added benefit. People love it but don't even think about the fact that they're paying for it. It's called MARKETING.). I guess I'm a bad guy.

What does that have to do with anything.

As someone else mentioned, photographers are no different than other people in business. This happens in EVERY business but it seems photographers whine about it more than anyone else. It makes no sense.




  
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Bosscat
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Jan 24, 2012 18:09 |  #42

I know of a guy with a full time job, that will sell you 21 to 30 Digital Photo Files on a CD - $45.00

I had another photographer e-mail me ranting about this guy and the fact that people were telling him that they would buy from this file seller, since it was cheaper and what they perceived a better value then buying his reasonably priced prints.

He and I both know this guys work is pretty poor, but many many people will take 25 average images of themselves for $45 then 2 killer shots for $50 more often then not.

Its perception, that they are getting more for their money.

The iPhone and the internet have helped to make crappy photos acceptable to the masses, like it or not.


Your camera is alot smarter than the "M" Zealots would have you believe

  
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Rubi ­ Jane
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Jan 24, 2012 18:21 as a reply to  @ GadgetRick's post |  #43

BrandonSi wrote in post #13761205 (external link)
No one is born a full-time photographer. It's a decision one makes. If they can't make ends meet, they should go get a different job. Just because someone shoots full time doesn't mean they have some special right to receive business from people.

GadgetRick wrote in post #13761493 (external link)
Stop blaming the wrong things for the industry changing.

Thankfully I take care of my business and I'm doing fine, but please enlighten me on how you feel this "don't need or care to make money because I have a 9-5 job that pays me well" attitude actually helps the industry?

I agree, these part-time peddlers are free to charge what they want, but it's poor business ethic when they don't give a damn. Oh, I forgot, they aren't in business so they don't need to give a damn. What was I thinking?


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BrandonSi
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Jan 24, 2012 20:23 |  #44

Rubi Jane wrote in post #13762496 (external link)
Thankfully I take care of my business and I'm doing fine, but please enlighten me on how you feel this "don't need or care to make money because I have a 9-5 job that pays me well" attitude actually helps the industry?

I agree, these part-time peddlers are free to charge what they want, but it's poor business ethic when they don't give a damn. Oh, I forgot, they aren't in business so they don't need to give a damn. What was I thinking?

It helps the industry become stronger by killing off low-end professionals who can't provide quality beyond those people doing it as a hobby.


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lankforddl
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Jan 24, 2012 20:59 as a reply to  @ BrandonSi's post |  #45

Dear Bosscat, all my prices are up to date now so your concern about my prices should be corrected.

As far as the "non-pro-photographer" stealing "pro photographer" gigs, it's a no-win to argue that subject on this forum.

If my photography is good and people want me to be their photographer then I'll charge a fair market price to do it.

Edit: listen, I understand the frustration of a "professional photographer" being upset with competition and non-pros lowering the costs of paid work but that's the beauty of the free market. When you're on the consumer side you love the low cost of BHphoto or Adorama products but guess who you've upset. Your local camera store. Survival of the fittest. Sink or swim!


5DIICAN17-40CAN50CAN85CAN100CAN135CAN70-200

  
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