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FORUMS General Gear Talk Flash and Studio Lighting 
Thread started 08 Feb 2012 (Wednesday) 11:13
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Best solution for shooting at around 1/800 s above f4

 
xrayhead
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Feb 08, 2012 11:13 |  #1

Hi All

I'm getting very confused at how to achieve flash sync at high shutter speeds. I want to shoot action at 1/800 s and above and would like F4 and above if possible?

Other requirements are for the flash to be wireless/off camera and able to trigger x2 light source's.

I have seen some video of surfers being shoot at Disney typhoon lagoon at night with what looks like Pro Photo gear but would like to know if I can do the same this with a cheaper solution.

Sorry if this is a dumb question or if I am asking the impossible, I just cant seem to get my head around flash photography :(

Many thanks!

Xray

OK Just found the video here: http://www.youtube.com​/watch?v=PbdcPjO7iXA (external link)


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bobbyz
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Feb 08, 2012 11:15 |  #2

Why you need 1/800?

Getting wider aperture is very easy.


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xrayhead
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Feb 08, 2012 11:24 |  #3

bobbyz wrote in post #13849116 (external link)
Why you need 1/800?

Getting wider aperture is very easy.

I'm looking to shoot action, as I said above it's confusing me :rolleyes:

One project I have is mountain biking in the woods and the light sucks big time!!


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[Hyuni]
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Feb 08, 2012 11:25 |  #4

wow, 1/800 is very fast!


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Wilt
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Feb 08, 2012 11:29 |  #5

1. Electronic flash normally only works UP TO the max X-synch speed of your camera...typically only 1/200 sec for Canon FF cameras (or 1/250 for Canon APS-C cameras)

2. Electronic flash normally falls off in intensity according to the Inverse Square law. For example, with a Canon 580EXII set for max telephoto (105mm on FF), its Guide Number is 190, which means it will be usable only to about 67' when shoothing with f/2.8 on your lens and the camera set to ISO 100 -- even though it allows f/22 to be used when you are only 9' away from the subject!

3. When using flash outdoors, you also have to consider the fact that the ambient light may itself overexpose a photo when set to the shutter speed and aperture; for example f/2.8 1/200 would be overexposing by 4EV if your subject were in bright sun (even without the flash)!

4. HSS allows a flash unit like the 580EXII to be used with a faster shutter speed than 1/200, but when you do so, its effective power is diminished a lot! For example, shooting at 1/800 would cause the effective Guide Number to be reduced so much that its max distance it could reach with f/2.8 shrinks from 67' to only about 16' (or less)

5. The lights which are shown in the linked video are NOT speedlights like the 580EX, but are much more powerful studio lights, and they do NOT support HSS and therefore are limited to the 1/200 shutter speed.


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ocabj
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Feb 08, 2012 11:35 |  #6

Set exposure to minimize ambient. Use strobes to freeze the action.


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xrayhead
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Feb 08, 2012 11:36 |  #7

Wilt wrote in post #13849208 (external link)
1. Electronic flash normally only works UP TO the max X-synch speed of your camera...typically only 1/200 sec for Canon FF cameras (or 1/250 for Canon APS-C cameras)

2. Electronic flash normally falls off in intensity according to the Inverse Square law. For example, with a Canon 580EXII set for max telephoto (105mm on FF), its Guide Number is 190, which means it will be usable only to about 67' when shoothing with f/2.8 on your lens and the camera set to ISO 100

3. When using flash outdoors, you also have to consider the fact that the ambient light may itself overexpose a photo when set to the shutter speed and aperture; for example f/2.8 1/200 would be overexposing by 4EV if your subject were in bright sun (even without the flash)!

4. HSS allows a flash unit like the 580EXII to be used with a faster shutter speed than 1/200, but when you do so, its effective power is diminished a lot! For example, shooting at 1/800 would cause the effective Guide Number to be reduced so much that its max distance it could reach with f/2.8 shrinks from 67' to only about 16' (or less)

5. The lights which are shown in the linked video are NOT speedlights like the 580EX, but are much more powerful studio lights, and they do NOT support HSS and therefore are limited to the 1/200 shutter speed.

So the more power the flash has the higher f-stop but you are still limited to 1/200 s?


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Wilt
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Feb 08, 2012 11:38 |  #8

xrayhead wrote in post #13849247 (external link)
So the more power the flash has the higher f-stop but you are still limited to 1/200 s?

right...unless the flash supports HSS mode, but then you suffer the problem of greatly diminished flash output intensity


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Dustman
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Feb 08, 2012 11:46 as a reply to  @ Wilt's post |  #9

xrayhead wrote in post #13849247 (external link)
So the more power the flash has the higher f-stop but you are still limited to 1/200 s?

Yes you are limited to the shutter speed max of 1/200 or 1/250 of a second depending what body you are using. What flash you are using does not effect this.

ocabj wrote in post #13849237 (external link)
Set exposure to minimize ambient. Use strobes to freeze the action.

+1........kil ambient as much you can, ISO 100, max shutter speed, and smallest f stop possible, and your flash will freeze the action!


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xrayhead
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Feb 08, 2012 11:51 as a reply to  @ Dustman's post |  #10

OK, thanks for the help... I was getting confused with HSS!

I have a couple of pocket wizards and although in the video here: http://www.youtube.com​/watch?v=gXVdNwsNJiI (external link) Mark is using up to 1/8000 s shutters his aperture is wide open at f/2.8?

It seems to be the other way round :rolleyes:

Set exposure to minimize ambient. Use strobes to freeze the action. F/stop - Shutter ??????


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tman2782
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Feb 08, 2012 12:12 |  #11

I had this same confusion a while back and posted about it. You don't use the shutter speed to freeze high speed motion, it is the flash duration that is much faster that freezes the motion.

The max shutter sync speed of around 1/200 is in many cases enough to kill ambient light and not cause any blurring.


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bobbyz
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Feb 08, 2012 12:13 |  #12

1. I will mix ambient and flash unless I wanted black back grounds or had more strobes to light the bg separately.

2. Since you shooting in low light situations, flash power loss due to HSS mode is less of an issue.

3. Would need some new gen triggers (mini/flex or others) for using HSS mode though.

4. I would try hypersync first over HSS mode.


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tman2782
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Feb 08, 2012 12:15 |  #13

xrayhead wrote in post #13849336 (external link)
Set exposure to minimize ambient. Use strobes to freeze the action. F/stop - Shutter ??????

Use:
Shutter speed to expose ambient. (Lower shutter speed, less ambient exposure, does not affect flash exposure)
Aperture to expose flash. (Lower aperture, less flash exposure)

To get various apertures, you can also control flash power accordingly.


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Hopelessdfilms
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Feb 08, 2012 12:31 as a reply to  @ xrayhead's post |  #14

TO PREFACE I'm IN NO WAY SPONSORED OR PAID BY ANY OF THE FOLLOWING MANUFACTURERS TO GIVE THESE STATEMENTS. THESE ARE MERELY PERSONAL EXPERIENCES AND KNOWLEDGE GATHERED

To freeze action the key thing you are looking for is a fast flash duration.

Freezing action is really more due to flash duration, than shutter speed.... (when using flash)

While pocket wizard and their new models allow for very fast sync speeds, there are other ways to freeze action, as you have shown with the youtube vids.

Yes, profoto produces many options with a fast flash duration, as does broncolor with their scoro packs... though these are WICKED EXPENSIVE!!!

A cheap option is the new Einstein monolights from paulcbuff.... they are quite inexpensive to other options and they do offer a verrrrrry fast flash duration, which you'll need to freeze the action.

To keep things general (not always the case w every light) to produce the fastest flash duration a light can produce you usually have to set the output to its lowest settings... this allows the duration to be incredibly fast.

I don't want to get too technical with this, but a 1/200 shutter speed is plenty slow to contain a fast flash duration and freeze action. It is not necessary to set your shutter speed above these normal xsync speeds.

Go back to the basics of balancing ambient/flash and using your aperture and shutter to do so... then place ur flash into the equation and make sure ur flash sync is faster than your shutter so you're able to capture all of that light that is sent out.

I hope my ramblings make some sort of sense...

just my .02c :)




  
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dedsen
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Feb 08, 2012 12:49 |  #15

Dang, I can only hope the day comes that my advise is so profound that I need a disclaimer in all caps before I type. :)



  
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Best solution for shooting at around 1/800 s above f4
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