Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 22 Jan 2012 (Sunday) 09:10
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Are Amateurs destroying Photography

 
mrwalker
Senior Member
Avatar
274 posts
Joined Jan 2012
     
Feb 13, 2012 05:24 |  #556

Ricardo222 wrote in post #13877173 (external link)
But I would support the idea of a Guild that photographers could join after completing whatever apprenticeship was deemed appropriate.

Hmmm.. Modelled on the Assassins' Guild of Ankh-Morpork maybe???


Amateur, but not Destroying Photography...
Current: T2i/ 550D || EF 85mm 1.8 USM || 430EX II || Powershot SD880 IS || Manfrotto 190 from the last century || Ubuntu 10.04.4, RawTherapee and GIMP
Old: Nikon FM10 (Manual Film SLR) || Nikon E 50mm f1.8 AI || Nikkor 135mm f2.8 AI

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
wuzzittoya
Goldmember
Avatar
2,551 posts
Joined Aug 2011
Location: rural Missouri
     
Feb 13, 2012 05:48 |  #557

Okay pros - not that you'll make me feel terribly guilty - tell me how much I'm in the wrong on this one:

A family in my church is homeless. Their graduating senior is a musician - a good one, but someone who prefers to style himself as "unique" - he doesn't want to be like anyone else if at all possible, including having the same poses and backgrounds as the rest of his school's senior pictures. Our church believes very much in God moving in our hearts, and the day that I discussed with hubby offering to photograph this kid, he approached me and asked me to do his pictures.

So far we've gotten formal poses done. He is in love with what I've gotten so far (and when his mom saw them she squealed and hugged me) and can't wait for our location work once the weather cooperates when we both have the time available.

A photographer showed up for the school's career day (our local photographer was driven out of business last year; strangely this photographer's portrait charges are 40% less than going rates around here) and did a slide show of students she had done pictures with and then approached students she hadn't provided services for (including this teenager) asking when she could pencil them in. He told me yesterday he didn't like various things about her photography, including using windblown backgrounds while the subject's hair, etc., was completely still, lighting on the subject being in the opposite direction of lighting in the background, and similar poses for each background used (students posed the same in front of x background, y background had y pose). He considers himself unique and wants pictures that will be completely unlike everyone else's and reflect who he is - a talented, unique musician.

So, even if he paid for portraits, it is unlikely he would have gone to her if he could have found other options.

Did I steal her "sale"?


I like to push buttons on thingies that take pictures. Sometimes I like to push other buttons, too.
I only bite on the second Tuesday of every week, usually only mean people - they kinda taste like chicken...
You can call me Wuzzi

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
20droger
Cream of the Crop
14,685 posts
Likes: 27
Joined Dec 2006
     
Feb 13, 2012 09:10 |  #558

wuzzittoya wrote in post #13877502 (external link)
Okay pros - not that you'll make me feel terribly guilty - tell me how much I'm in the wrong on this one:

A family in my church is homeless. Their graduating senior is a musician - a good one, but someone who prefers to style himself as "unique" - he doesn't want to be like anyone else if at all possible, including having the same poses and backgrounds as the rest of his school's senior pictures. Our church believes very much in God moving in our hearts, and the day that I discussed with hubby offering to photograph this kid, he approached me and asked me to do his pictures.

So far we've gotten formal poses done. He is in love with what I've gotten so far (and when his mom saw them she squealed and hugged me) and can't wait for our location work once the weather cooperates when we both have the time available.

A photographer showed up for the school's career day (our local photographer was driven out of business last year; strangely this photographer's portrait charges are 40% less than going rates around here) and did a slide show of students she had done pictures with and then approached students she hadn't provided services for (including this teenager) asking when she could pencil them in. He told me yesterday he didn't like various things about her photography, including using windblown backgrounds while the subject's hair, etc., was completely still, lighting on the subject being in the opposite direction of lighting in the background, and similar poses for each background used (students posed the same in front of x background, y background had y pose). He considers himself unique and wants pictures that will be completely unlike everyone else's and reflect who he is - a talented, unique musician.

So, even if he paid for portraits, it is unlikely he would have gone to her if he could have found other options.

Did I steal her "sale"?

If I read your post correctly, you had already contracted with the young musician (and his mother) before this photographer showed up. Ergo, no, you did not steal her sale.

Even if she had shown up first, her offerings were such that they would have been refused by the young musician. Therefore, she would have made no sale in this instance, and the client would have been free to seek a contract elsewhere, which he did, with you. You did not steal her sale.

Also, even if she were offering her services for sale coincident with you offering services for free to the young musician, and price were not an issue, the young musician has made it clear that he did not like what she had to offer. He would not have gone with her in any case. You did not steal her sale, she failed to make it. A different thing altogether.

However, money was an issue. The young man and his family had none to "waste" on photographs. Unless the other photographer was willing to do the shots for free, there was no "sale." You did not steal her sale.

Finally (yes, finally there is a "finally"), he asked you to do his pictures as not only a photographer but a fellow member of the same church. He solicited you. The fact that you were considering offering your services is irrelevant (but very nice of you). There was no sale for you to steal.

Feel better now?




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Numenorean
Cream of the Crop
5,013 posts
Likes: 28
Joined Feb 2011
     
Feb 13, 2012 13:30 |  #559

If the photographer doesn't have good enough images to have someone book them, they've lost nothing because they never had anything in the first place.


Gear List

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
nekrosoft13
Goldmember
Avatar
4,087 posts
Gallery: 185 photos
Likes: 683
Joined Jun 2010
     
Feb 13, 2012 13:33 |  #560
bannedPermanent ban

doogle510 wrote in post #13819250 (external link)
Haven’t read this whole thread, don’t know if it’s been brought up, but you couldn't some of the blame of "amateurs destroying photography" be placed on the manufactures. 20 years ago photography was very expensive, but over time the price of a good camera has dropped drastically, which in turn has open the world photography to a larger group of people. So shouldn’t the “pro” be mad at Canon and Nikon for making cameras cheaper, instead of guy who is able to afford one.

Cameras and lenses should drop in price even more. Photography shouldn't be some exclusive club that only rich chosen few can afford.


Gear List

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
geeky
Senior Member
Avatar
716 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
     
Feb 13, 2012 13:49 |  #561

It seems that the heavy dependence on the definition of "professional" is what may or may not be "destroying photography."

I completely understand where everyone is coming from regarding the issue of DSLR kits and every owner believing that are a professional. Granted, I am not an amateur nor am I a professional. I have had a couple images published and I do get paid for my work but I am always learning from other photog's and hopefully other people have learned from me.

It's actually a huge pet peeve of mine when friends say I am a professional photographer because I never market myself like that. I inform people that I freelance in photography and if they're interested they can look through my previous work/come to their own conclusions of what kind of photographer I am. We all work hard at perfecting our understanding of photography and our skills, and we have dropped countless amounts of cash into our gear.

That being said don't let the labels force you to become angry or disinterested in photography. I think the best thing I've ever heard in regards to photography and individuals on POTN was:

"Amateurs discuss gear, photographers discuss lighting."


C&C Always Welcome
Canon 5D Classic - Gripped | CanonEOS 1D mkIIn
Canon EF 17-40L | Canon EF 70-200 f4L
Tamron 28-75 f/2.8 | Canon 85mm f1.8 | Canon 40mm f2.8
430EXII | YN460 II (x2) | YN465 | YN468 | RF602

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Frugal
Senior Member
Avatar
784 posts
Joined May 2009
Location: Northern CA
     
Feb 13, 2012 14:54 |  #562

wuzzittoya wrote in post #13877502 (external link)
Okay pros - not that you'll make me feel terribly guilty - tell me how much I'm in the wrong on this one:

A family in my church is homeless. Their graduating senior is a musician - a good one, but someone who prefers to style himself as "unique" - he doesn't want to be like anyone else if at all possible, including having the same poses and backgrounds as the rest of his school's senior pictures. Our church believes very much in God moving in our hearts, and the day that I discussed with hubby offering to photograph this kid, he approached me and asked me to do his pictures.

So far we've gotten formal poses done. He is in love with what I've gotten so far (and when his mom saw them she squealed and hugged me) and can't wait for our location work once the weather cooperates when we both have the time available.

A photographer showed up for the school's career day (our local photographer was driven out of business last year; strangely this photographer's portrait charges are 40% less than going rates around here) and did a slide show of students she had done pictures with and then approached students she hadn't provided services for (including this teenager) asking when she could pencil them in. He told me yesterday he didn't like various things about her photography, including using windblown backgrounds while the subject's hair, etc., was completely still, lighting on the subject being in the opposite direction of lighting in the background, and similar poses for each background used (students posed the same in front of x background, y background had y pose). He considers himself unique and wants pictures that will be completely unlike everyone else's and reflect who he is - a talented, unique musician.

So, even if he paid for portraits, it is unlikely he would have gone to her if he could have found other options.

Did I steal her "sale"?

Not at all. A donation to a cause you consider worthy is a fine thing. Plus the teenager has a right to decide the style of portrait he wants - unless the school doesn't allow that.


Richard
Gear

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Ricardo222
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
16,067 posts
Gallery: 3 photos
Likes: 253
Joined Mar 2010
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
     
Feb 13, 2012 15:37 |  #563

mrwalker wrote in post #13877451 (external link)
Hmmm.. Modelled on the Assassins' Guild of Ankh-Morpork maybe???

YES!!!!

With the Weird Sisters as arbitrators!


Growing old disgracefully!

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Ricardo222
Cream of the Crop
Avatar
16,067 posts
Gallery: 3 photos
Likes: 253
Joined Mar 2010
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
     
Feb 13, 2012 15:43 |  #564

Frugal wrote in post #13890953 (external link)
Not at all. A donation to a cause you consider worthy is a fine thing. Plus the teenager has a right to decide the style of portrait he wants - unless the school doesn't allow that.

I agree. The bottom line is this...just because a "pro" takes the pictures, we the public are under no compulsion to buy them if they're not good enough, unless we were foolish enough to contract to do so no matter what the quality.

Wuzzi did a favour, and in the client's eyes did a better job than the "pro", so good on you, Wuzzi...you stole nothing from that photographer.


Growing old disgracefully!

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
BreitlingFan
Goldmember
Avatar
1,427 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Jun 2010
Location: California
     
Feb 13, 2012 15:54 |  #565
bannedPermanent ban

geeky wrote in post #13890609 (external link)
I completely understand where everyone is coming from regarding the issue of DSLR kits and every owner believing that are a professional.

See, I don't believe that's what's happening.

In fact, what's happening is exactly the opposite.

If someone goes out and buys an entry level kit, I don't really believe they're going to start calling themself a "professional" just because they may post a Craig's List ad. The people who are saying that the newbies think they're pros are, well, the pros.

I've never heard someone referring to themself as a "pro" just because they own a DSLR...


Gear List
"I feel bad for people who don't drink. They wake up in the morning and that's the best they're gonna' feel all day." - Dean Martin

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
geeky
Senior Member
Avatar
716 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
     
Feb 13, 2012 18:13 |  #566

BreitlingFan wrote in post #13891329 (external link)
See, I don't believe that's what's happening.

In fact, what's happening is exactly the opposite.

If someone goes out and buys an entry level kit, I don't really believe they're going to start calling themself a "professional" just because they may post a Craig's List ad. The people who are saying that the newbies think they're pros are, well, the pros.

I've never heard someone referring to themself as a "pro" just because they own a DSLR...

Ive seen it and heard it on multiple occasions. I've been to car meets where I no longer even bother bringing my own setup unless I know i'll be doing an individual shoot afterwards for a specific car.

I've been to huge car meets where kids are running around with their rebels and saying "totally going to make this into an HDR, check it out on my professional facebook and flickr pages man!" etc. it gets annoying, quick.


C&C Always Welcome
Canon 5D Classic - Gripped | CanonEOS 1D mkIIn
Canon EF 17-40L | Canon EF 70-200 f4L
Tamron 28-75 f/2.8 | Canon 85mm f1.8 | Canon 40mm f2.8
430EXII | YN460 II (x2) | YN465 | YN468 | RF602

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
wuzzittoya
Goldmember
Avatar
2,551 posts
Joined Aug 2011
Location: rural Missouri
     
Feb 13, 2012 18:15 |  #567

Thank you everyone. I was waiting for an "amateurs shouldn't shoot photos that would have been done by a pro, period" kind of answer. Strangely, there are those of us who do not have a professional portrait/wedding/event photographer shingle out, for whatever reason, that can feel like targets of the "amateur who is destroying photography" thread, at least I did. I don't know that I could make a living with professional portraits doing them the way that I am for him... this will take me hours including location work, because I want to really portray who he is inside at this moment, including his love of music and how it expresses his "soul." I've played various musical instruments since age five, and know from experience that when you are playing your heart out you lose yourself in the music. A few of the images I'm doing will focus more on him making the music than him. I also want to do "street musician" shots, the shots he asked for (though I don't know why he wants to play guitar laying in a mud puddle, I'll do my best to make it look good) and shots of him in our local (very tiny, but very interesting) music store. He has played in their booth regularly for any of our town street fairs, so it will be more than okay with the owner. :)

My camera doesn't make me a pro. I consider myself a freelance photographer the same way I'm a freelance writer. Sometimes my creations will earn me money. In the meantime I work on making them better because I love to make things (words or images) that make people think and/or feel. This is what is important to me. This thread really made me question whether or not I should take on the few photo sessions I had agreed to, since I wasn't a "professional" photographer who advertises for her work that way. It is probably one of the reasons I argued so hard about it. If I'm a competent photographer who is approached by someone to use my skills, why am I not allowed to be paid a fair wage (yes, I've read books on business practices for photography and know how to determine what the market rate is and have no plans of regularly undercutting established photographers for the sake of being able to have a portrait studio)?

There are people out there who have no clue... I still insist that they probably won't last too long unless they either improve their quality and/or increase their prices to cover their expenses adequately. If they are pricing themselves below the rest of the market they won't remain competition for long and chances are there are very few clients a good photographer is losing to them.


I like to push buttons on thingies that take pictures. Sometimes I like to push other buttons, too.
I only bite on the second Tuesday of every week, usually only mean people - they kinda taste like chicken...
You can call me Wuzzi

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
36,785 posts
Gallery: 161 photos
Best ofs: 6
Likes: 7145
Joined May 2007
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
     
Feb 13, 2012 18:36 |  #568

wuzzittoya wrote in post #13892087 (external link)
Thank you everyone. I was waiting for an "amateurs shouldn't shoot photos that would have been done by a pro, period" kind of answer. Strangely, there are those of us who do not have a professional portrait/wedding/event photographer shingle out, for whatever reason, that can feel like targets of the "amateur who is destroying photography" thread, at least I did. I don't know that I could make a living with professional portraits doing them the way that I am for him... this will take me hours including location work, because I want to really portray who he is inside at this moment, including his love of music and how it expresses his "soul." I've played various musical instruments since age five, and know from experience that when you are playing your heart out you lose yourself in the music. A few of the images I'm doing will focus more on him making the music than him. I also want to do "street musician" shots, the shots he asked for (though I don't know why he wants to play guitar laying in a mud puddle, I'll do my best to make it look good) and shots of him in our local (very tiny, but very interesting) music store. He has played in their booth regularly for any of our town street fairs, so it will be more than okay with the owner. :)

My camera doesn't make me a pro. I consider myself a freelance photographer the same way I'm a freelance writer. Sometimes my creations will earn me money. In the meantime I work on making them better because I love to make things (words or images) that make people think and/or feel. This is what is important to me. This thread really made me question whether or not I should take on the few photo sessions I had agreed to, since I wasn't a "professional" photographer who advertises for her work that way. It is probably one of the reasons I argued so hard about it. If I'm a competent photographer who is approached by someone to use my skills, why am I not allowed to be paid a fair wage (yes, I've read books on business practices for photography and know how to determine what the market rate is and have no plans of regularly undercutting established photographers for the sake of being able to have a portrait studio)?

There are people out there who have no clue... I still insist that they probably won't last too long unless they either improve their quality and/or increase their prices to cover their expenses adequately. If they are pricing themselves below the rest of the market they won't remain competition for long and chances are there are very few clients a good photographer is losing to them.

If any full time professional hasn't positioned himself so that these things are not an issue to them then that photographer has some real problems.

I donate my services either severely discounted services or out right donate to things that I really care about and to organizations that help my community that I know do not have the funds but there services are important to those helped by them. One is a therapeutic riding stable that helps disabled veterans and handicapped children. Like what you described its something that wouldn't get done if I didn't step up. What you did shouldn't hurt any real pro. Just like what I do doesn't take the food outta anybodies mouths and its the right thing to do.

I will restate this from a previous post, the real issue isn't pro non-pro, its those that respect the medium and are constantly trying to learn and push. Those that truly understand that technique is just the beginning and that the real test is learning the visual as well. That means pushing to find their own style and develop their own personal way of seeing and that can be anyone pro, non-pro and everything in-between.

And then theres the others that think photography is just pushing a button. Its a lesser art form. They have no desire to learn anything more than to push the button and make a buck with it or not but to them its no more than a fact taking peace of equipment. Those are the real danger to photography, pro or non-pro.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
geeky
Senior Member
Avatar
716 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
     
Feb 13, 2012 18:53 |  #569

airfrogusmc wrote in post #13892228 (external link)
If any full time professional hasn't positioned himself so that these things are not an issue to them then that photographer has some real problems.

I donate my services either severely discounted services or out right donate to things that I really care about and to organizations that help my community that I know do not have the funds but there services are important to those helped by them. One is a therapeutic riding stable that helps disabled veterans and handicapped children. Like what you described its something that wouldn't get done if I didn't step up. What you did shouldn't hurt any real pro. Just like what I do doesn't take the food outta anybodies mouths and its the right thing to do.

I will restate this from a previous post, the real issue isn't pro non-pro, its those that respect the medium and are constantly trying to learn and push. Those that truly understand that technique is just the beginning and that the real test is learning the visual as well. That means pushing to find their own style and develop their own personal way of seeing and that can be anyone pro, non-pro and everything in-between.

And then theres the others that think photography is just pushing a button. Its a lesser art form. They have no desire to learn anything more than to push the button and make a buck with it or not but to them its no more than a fact taking peace of equipment. Those are the real danger to photography, pro or non-pro.

+1 this is exactly what I posted about. I definitely am not a professional nor an amateur but I am constantly shooting to learn more and understand.


C&C Always Welcome
Canon 5D Classic - Gripped | CanonEOS 1D mkIIn
Canon EF 17-40L | Canon EF 70-200 f4L
Tamron 28-75 f/2.8 | Canon 85mm f1.8 | Canon 40mm f2.8
430EXII | YN460 II (x2) | YN465 | YN468 | RF602

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
wuzzittoya
Goldmember
Avatar
2,551 posts
Joined Aug 2011
Location: rural Missouri
     
Feb 13, 2012 19:38 |  #570

I would put myself there, too - the learning and improving. I don't want to press a button and capture something - I want to find the best way to portray it - to make it something powerful when it is captured. Hubby drives me crazy - he insisted on "sharing" a DSLR so I got him his own. He still has not learned how to take it out of green square mode, will not learn to change lenses, etc. However, he holds no delusions as to "professional" photographer, thank goodness!


I like to push buttons on thingies that take pictures. Sometimes I like to push other buttons, too.
I only bite on the second Tuesday of every week, usually only mean people - they kinda taste like chicken...
You can call me Wuzzi

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

140,359 views & 0 likes for this thread
Are Amateurs destroying Photography
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is umeiri
861 guests, 189 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.