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Thread started 18 Feb 2012 (Saturday) 00:22
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Hot pixles 60D vs 7D (with pics!)

 
Tzetsin
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Feb 18, 2012 00:22 |  #1

EDIT!!!! not "hot" pixels. just very white "snow like" noise across all areas of the image.

So I have had a 60D for quite a while now, I do quite a bit of low light photography and have never had a problem with "hot" pixles at any ISO.

I recently purchased a 7D and noticed right away that any ISO 1250 and above I'm getting what I would call an extreme amount of hot pixles. Take a look at the example pictures and please tell me if I've just got a very good 60D, or a really bad 7D. These shots are SOOC and have NO noise reduction on in camera.

60D as a link because of the suck power of internet compression. (external link)


7D as a link because of the suck power of internet compression. (external link)


Now before anyone says, "oh you pixel peeper you, you'll never notice those in a normal sized picture!" I say yes I damn well did. I noticed it first in a normal low light picture.

I'm fully aware that the 60D and the 7D share the same image sensor which is why I'm concerned about the state of my 7D's noise. You would think that being a more expensive much more powerful camera, that the noise would be at LEAST equal. Is this normal?

I can still return it for a full refund or replacement if this is not absolutely normal.


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jwcdds
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Feb 18, 2012 00:43 |  #2

Time to buy Nikon.

On a slightly more serious note... are you kidding me? If you bothered looking, the 7D arrived on the market first. It's Canon's 1st APS-C camera with the 18mp sensor. T2i came after. So did the 60D. So did the T3i. So while the 7D may be more expensive, it's mostly because of the other feature set, not because of the sensor.

Canon had the opportunity to learn, tune, and refine the images captured and outputted from the T2i, 60D, and T3i. And also, you're using Adobe Lightroom, not DPP. How Adobe handles Canon's RAW files is Adobe's business... no fault of Canon's.

Oh, and in addition... your 60D image was shot @ 1/8s. Your 7D was captured at 1.6seconds. So you're looking at the shadow areas where your shooting/lighting conditions are different (seemingly much lower w/ the 7D than w/ the 60D). That's a 3.5 stops difference in lighting. You have a sensor at iso3200 but more than triple the exposure time? Yes, you will get more noise.


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lannes
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Feb 18, 2012 00:45 |  #3

apparently you can remap the sensor by doing a manual self clean for a minute or so with the body cap on


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Tzetsin
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Feb 18, 2012 03:15 |  #4

jwcdds wrote in post #13918335 (external link)
Oh, and in addition... your 60D image was shot @ 1/8s. Your 7D was captured at 1.6seconds. So you're looking at the shadow areas where your shooting/lighting conditions are different (seemingly much lower w/ the 7D than w/ the 60D). That's a 3.5 stops difference in lighting. You have a sensor at iso3200 but more than triple the exposure time? Yes, you will get more noise.


The problem is consistent across all the exposure times I've tried. The 60D has ZERO of the same issue at any exposure time. I don't think this is an exposure problem, I think its a hot pixel problem.

What I really want to know is "Is this typical of the 7D"? If it IS, then I'll live with it. If it is NOT then I will return it for exchange while I still have the opportunity.

I've got a 60D a 5Dmk2 and recently the 7D. Neither the newer 60D, nor the older (and very different) 5Dmk2 have anything that resembles this kind of noise, which makes me worry and wonder if this is typical.


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xhack
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Feb 18, 2012 03:53 |  #5

Hot pixels are not the same as noise. If you had one or more hot pixels, you would notice. I cannot see any hot pixels in your examples. But I can see noise.

In shadow areas and at ISO 3200, I am not surprised. I think you are indeed pixel-peeping and over-critical. Perhaps your expectations are too high - you have a pretty potent brew of long exposure, high ISO and shadow area. You are going to get noise.


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Crafty
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Feb 18, 2012 07:23 |  #6

xhack wrote in post #13918735 (external link)
Hot pixels are not the same as noise. If you had one or more hot pixels, you would notice. I cannot see any hot pixels in your examples. But I can see noise.

In shadow areas and at ISO 3200, I am not surprised. I think you are indeed pixel-peeping and over-critical. Perhaps your expectations are too high - you have a pretty potent brew of long exposure, high ISO and shadow area. You are going to get noise.

+1 I see no dead pixels, I do see noise.

The 7D is very critical of underexposure. Can we see the whole picture please OP ?


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jwcdds
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Feb 18, 2012 10:27 |  #7

Tzetsin wrote in post #13918652 (external link)
The problem is consistent across all the exposure times I've tried. The 60D has ZERO of the same issue at any exposure time. I don't think this is an exposure problem, I think its a hot pixel problem.

What I really want to know is "Is this typical of the 7D"? If it IS, then I'll live with it. If it is NOT then I will return it for exchange while I still have the opportunity.

I've got a 60D a 5Dmk2 and recently the 7D. Neither the newer 60D, nor the older (and very different) 5Dmk2 have anything that resembles this kind of noise, which makes me worry and wonder if this is typical.

The 5D2 doesn't even belong in this conversation since you're looking at different sensors.

As far as your 60D and 7D are concerned... while there may be very slight variations from one camera to another (and that could be said between same camera models), there's no way to make that determination until you actually put them under "controlled" tests.

This is like decades ago, when I was into "fixing up" cars... you buy a new exhaust, and you buy some headers and cold air intake. And your engine now sounds much louder, and you have the manufacturer claiming that you've gained 10hp. And instead of taking your car to the dynometer, we sit there with our own "butt dyno" and say, "Yeah... I can really feel the hp gain."

Exposure has everything to do with noise level. Test it out yourself if you don't believe me. Last night, I was out shooting stars. I was shooting in M, iso3200, 1/100s, f/1.2 (with my 85mm). When I dialed my shutter speed to 1/50s, simply extending it by 1-stop, the noise level increased significantly. I was still shooting at iso3200.

So while it is impossible for me to tell you whether anything's wrong with your 7D vs. 60D, I can say with certainty that unless you're testing them out under controlled conditions... your "butt dyno" (if you may) is off. There's no way I would compare a 1/8s exposure to a 1.6s exposure and check for noise difference.


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Tzetsin
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Feb 18, 2012 11:15 as a reply to  @ Tzetsin's post |  #8

Ok, since nobody wants to outright say that this is NORMAL, should I just assume thats what your all trying to say?

Since you folks just cant get over the time difference in the two shots I made another one on the 60D at thirty seconds. Far and away longer than the 7D's paltry exposure and if you would please look, you'll see that the 60D's noise is uniform across the entire image. no white noise pixels.

60D @ 3200ISO and 30 seconds exposure as a link because of the suck power of internet compression. (external link)

PS, I edited the original post to clarify its nasty noise, not dead pixels.


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Tzetsin
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Feb 18, 2012 11:28 as a reply to  @ Tzetsin's post |  #9

Here it is again on the 7D at 1/640th of a second. As you can see, exposure hasn't changed the issue at all. (external link)


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Crafty
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Feb 18, 2012 13:13 |  #10

Tzetsin wrote in post #13919863 (external link)
Ok, since nobody wants to outright say that this is NORMAL, should I just assume thats what your all trying to say?

Its normal as far as we can tell from the images you show us, we still haven't seen the full image of these pictures.

So, you have noise, and ? The 30 sec 60D exposure looks like you just took a shot with the lens cap on - you wont get noise as you need *some* light.

As someone else said you aren't comparing like for like. Use the same lens, take the same shot at the same time (or near as dammit), with the same ISO/Aperture/Shutter on both cameras and then come back.

I don't think there is much wrong with your 7D, I just don't think you've learnt the camera and its characteristics yet.
Take a look at this:

IMAGE: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7064/6862131991_0b3d070407_z.jpg
IMAGE LINK: http://www.flickr.com/​photos/hotrods/6862131​991/  (external link)
South Downs Stages 2012 (external link) by c20let (external link), on Flickr

Looks pretty horrible really, near on wide open aperture (for that lens anyway), high ISO, if I remember rightly I pushed exposure a bit in PP too.. but what do you expect? I should of upped the ISO rather than underexpose and then try and push the exposure in PP. Alternatively I should of been using a lens with a wider aperture to prevent the underexposure.

If you look around there are some pretty stunning pictures taken at high ISO with the 7D , but they have correct exposure and thus are much cleaner. The 7D will benefit if you over expose by a stop and then pull it back in PP for certain scenes/light.

I appreciate this may not be what you want to hear, but I think if you do some reading you'll learn the camera and get the results you are looking for.

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Tzetsin
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Feb 18, 2012 15:36 |  #11

Ok, because I know that everyone thinks i'm just being a whiney biotch. Here are two shots that are as much exactly the same as I think I can make them.

60D. nice noise. no bright white pixels everywhere.http://www.flickr.com …9/sizes/o/in/ph​otostream/ (external link)

7D Crap noise. Bright white pixels flooding the entire image. It makes it look like my sensor was really dusty. (external link)

So what I really need to know is "is the white pixel noise normal and on every 7D" If it IS, then I'll just deal with it. If it ISNT, the I'd much rather swap it out and get the nice noise that I have on the 60D.


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jwcdds
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Feb 18, 2012 17:12 |  #12

Tzetsin wrote in post #13919863 (external link)
Ok, since nobody wants to outright say that this is NORMAL, should I just assume thats what your all trying to say?

Since you folks just cant get over the time difference in the two shots I made another one on the 60D at thirty seconds. Far and away longer than the 7D's paltry exposure and if you would please look, you'll see that the 60D's noise is uniform across the entire image. no white noise pixels.

60D @ 3200ISO and 30 seconds exposure as a link because of the suck power of internet compression. (external link)

PS, I edited the original post to clarify its nasty noise, not dead pixels.

I don't know. How am I suppose to say it's normal if I have nothing to compare it with? You're not providing comparable shots at all.

You have 3 cameras: 60D, 7D, 5D2. Can't you run these tests yourself? How difficult is it to take the camera, put it on a tripod, use the same lens, and take identical shots w/ identical exposure settings between the 60D and 7D?

Your 7D shot was supposedly iso2500 and not 3200. 2500 is an intermediary iso setting too. Your 60D shot is of something completely black/dark it seems. But your 7D is of something fuzzy.

Is your 7D "normal"?? Beats me. It could be fine, it could be wonky. But right now, as far as what *you* have shown me, my opinion is that you're the one that's wonky since you can't provide good test photos and limit your variables. :D

*edit*. Oh, I see the latest comparison shots. Better. At least the exposure times are the same. But the cropped screenshots are different subjects or different crops. So hard to say. The 7D looks more "hot-pixel-ish" at the darker regions. While the 60D looks more uniform, yet the shadows aren't as dark on the 60D photo. If you think your copy of the 7D's not right, then exchange, return, or send it back to the mothership for fixing.


Julian
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jwcdds
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Feb 18, 2012 17:35 |  #13

I did this series of tests back when I first got my 7D and compared it to my 40D. These are 100% crops.

IMAGE NOT FOUND
IMAGE IS A REDIRECT OR MISSING!
HTTP response: NOT FOUND | MIME changed to 'image/gif'


Then tests that I shot when comparing my 7D and 5Dc, again 100% crops.
IMAGE: http://julianchen.smugmug.com/Misc/7D-vs-5D/i-vFF44sV/0/X3/20110807-5D7D-iso3200-X3.jpg

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BigBlueDodge
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Feb 18, 2012 18:14 |  #14

By looking at those pictures, I would venture to guess that you have some aggressive sharpening applied to the 7D images. Essentially, the sharpening is enhancing the noise, and bringing out the white dot's (aka noise) in your images. So with poor post processing, yes the 7D or any other camera will have bad noise at ISO 3200 in the shadows with aggressive sharpening.


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Tzetsin
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Feb 18, 2012 21:42 as a reply to  @ post 13921710 |  #15

Ok, problem solved.

I decided I'd take the 2 hour trip to the city to return it. Got myself another shiny new 7D. I still see more white pixels than on the 60D, but far fewer, and less pronounced than on the other 7D. I'd likely never have noticed the difference between the 60D and the 7D if I'd have had this copy first.

Thank you everyone for your time, I appreciate the feedback very much.


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