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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre Weddings & Other Family Events Talk 
Thread started 16 Feb 2012 (Thursday) 13:52
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capturephotography
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Feb 20, 2012 10:52 |  #46

forgot i posted this up here!

https://photography-on-the.net …/showthread.php​?t=1030849

maybe i should remove it just incase he sees. .... :D haha




  
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picturecrazy
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Feb 20, 2012 10:57 |  #47

Pick your battles.

Legal nit picking is pointless. Look at how much of your energy it's already consumed.

This one just doesn't seem like one worth fighting for AT ALL.

Instead, use your energy to get out there, shoot some amazing photos, and you will soon forget the photos you wanted to use from that wedding. Seriously, in the time it would take to talk to lawyers and stuff, you can hire a model and do the most amazingly awesome bridal shoot that would probably get you a whole lot more bookings than some second shooter images on your website ever could.

If you build your portfolio up, in a couple years you will look back on those photos and think, "my gosh I can't believe I actually wanted to raise a stink about those old photos".

Lesson learned, don't shoot for him again. Move on. Kick ass. Come out as a better shooter. Don't WASTE your time on this.


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Phil ­ V
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Feb 20, 2012 11:09 |  #48

Red Tie Photography wrote in post #13929213 (external link)
I can't speak for anyone else, but second shooting over 50 weddings myself, and having a second shooter for all of the weddings I have shot, this is exactly how second shooters are supposed to be used. The client hired "the studio" to produce work for their wedding. The "studio" hired the help they needed, and produced work that the client expected. Do you expect him to put your watermark on the images you shot and give them to the client? Do you think he paid you to come along, shoot for your own portfolio only, and then advertise for you?

I may agree with you that he did some things wrong, but I honestly dont think you understand how the relationship between photographer and second shooter works. The second shooter gets paid, so they arent giving their work away for nothing. If you feel you didnt get paid enough, or didnt have written rights to use the images, I think you may need to sit back and acknowledge that you didnt handle this right either.

This is the point almost exactly (there's a twist):p.
The OP should have got his agreement in writing. He thinks he had expressed permission to use the pictures to promote himself, for which he agreed to do the job cheaply.

However, it would appear that the main shooter believed that he had the rights to use the images and is now denying the agreement the OP believes he had.

Without a written contract it doesn't really matter what the agreement was at the time. I can understand the OP being miffed, but only a written contract would save the day. However in law, and with no written contract to the contrary we're in the situation you describe but with an odd twist. :cool:

The OP holds copyright to images that someone else is using to promote their business, technically he can issue a take down notice. It might be contrary to the spirit of a 2nd shooter agreement, it might fly in the face of the right way to do business, but it's the only law we have here, this argument isn't about what should be - it's about what is.

The OP holds copyright to his images, because he has never signed away those rights. I don't even feel great about this because I believe it's against the spirit of what the business agreement should have been - however there is no contract where the 2nd shooter has signed away any rights to his pictures.

The contract for a 2nd shooter, should assign usage rights for the main shooter to sell the images and to use them in his own advertising. There would also be limits set to what the 2nd could do with the images, this could involve use in a print portfolio, use in online advertising, or no use at all, that would depend on the contract.

In extreme cases, the 2nd could actually be considered 'work for hire', I say this is extreme because for this to be legally correct the main shooter should be actually employing the 2nd, which is generally a lot of hassle for a casual 2nd shooter relationship. The usual 2nd shooter relationship is closer in law to the freelance contract the main shooter has with the client - where rights have to be assigned and acknowledged, and where taxes and insurance are the responsibility of the contractor.

I think this about sums this up in relation to UK law (and actually - without a written contract - US law too).;)


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Arman's ­ Photography
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Feb 20, 2012 19:35 |  #49

:). :). I would burn the images before I would get so militious about it, as you get more experience in this job you will realize what we are trying to say.


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wdwpsu
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Feb 20, 2012 19:49 |  #50

Armans Photography wrote in post #13932164 (external link)
=Arman's Photography;13932164]:). :). I would burn the images before I would get so militious about it, as you get more experience in this job you will realize what we are trying to say.

bw!


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5Dmaniac
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Feb 20, 2012 19:50 |  #51

This is pretty much a useless fight. Just let it go! He had all the rights to use your images - he paid you to do a job. Don't waste money on an attorney - you will never win this case.




  
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afterweawake
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Jun 27, 2012 23:24 as a reply to  @ 5Dmaniac's post |  #52

This is a bit late in the game to be mentioning this, but according to a lawyer who has been in practice for over 30 yrs, a verbal agreement is just as binding as a written one in court, provided that you are able to show reasonable proof of the understanding, i.e. the verbal agreement between both parties. I have 2nd shot for others in the past and was aggravated to see my images from a wedding published in a magazine under the main photographers name, esp considering I shot that wedding for free (I technically a 3rd shooter that day, just starting out.) However, I do not want to risk ruining the relationship I have with the main photog, as I 2nd for them regularly now, paid of course. But when it comes right down to it, I am the sort of person who would fight tooth and nail to claim the rights to my images if that were necessary, so I appreciate your "fighting spirit" as it were.




  
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