Approve the Cookies
This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and our Privacy Policy.
OK
Index  •   • New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Guest
New posts  •   • RTAT  •   • 'Best of'  •   • Gallery  •   • Gear  •   • Reviews
Register to forums    Log in

 
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 22 Jan 2012 (Sunday) 09:10
Search threadPrev/next
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

Are Amateurs destroying Photography

 
wuzzittoya
Goldmember
Avatar
2,551 posts
Joined Aug 2011
Location: rural Missouri
     
Feb 28, 2012 19:39 |  #691

I have a novel in the third edit. When I got sick I put it aside at that point and haven't picked it up again. :(


I like to push buttons on thingies that take pictures. Sometimes I like to push other buttons, too.
I only bite on the second Tuesday of every week, usually only mean people - they kinda taste like chicken...
You can call me Wuzzi

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)
S.Horton
worship my useful and insightful comments
Avatar
18,051 posts
Gallery: 7 photos
Likes: 117
Joined Dec 2006
Location: Royersford, PA
     
Feb 28, 2012 21:12 |  #692

Ah.

It occurs to me that maybe photography is destroying amateurs. It is eroding at them, making them take grandiose flights of over commitment. Maybe they are like pet rocks. Popular today, thought to be a completely uninspired bad idea later.


Sam - TF Says Ishmael
http://midnightblue.sm​ugmug.com (external link) 
Want your title changed?Dream On! (external link)

:cool:

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Bear ­ Dale
"I get 'em pregnant"
Avatar
4,703 posts
Gallery: 8 photos
Likes: 271
Joined Mar 2009
Location: Australia
     
Feb 28, 2012 21:19 |  #693

Why are "professional" photographers always so worried about "amateur" photographers for? The amateur price point customer...wouldn't (or shouldn't) be your customer base anyway should they?


Cheers,
Bear Dale

Some of my photos featured on Flickr Bear Dale (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Veemac
Goldmember
2,098 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Apr 2009
Location: Arizona, USA
     
Feb 28, 2012 21:33 |  #694

S.Horton wrote in post #13986482 (external link)
It occurs to me that the kid has nowhere else to work. So, even a few bucks is good news. Maybe phtography is a victim of a more systemic job loss, which leaves people desperate enough to take anything other than zero in return for what they perceive as pushing a button...

You make a good point, Sam. For an amateur/hobbyist photographer who has been laid off from their "real" job and has to pay bills & put food on the table somehow, it would be a strong temptation to pick up that camera they already have and try to make a few bucks with it to help make ends meet. I'm sure they'd be a lot less worried about "what they're doing to the profession of photography" than they would be about keeping a roof over their family's heads. Hauling down a few $300 shoot and burn weddings a month would yield them more money than working a 30-hour a week minimum wage job, with a lot less effort involved (remember, I'm talking amateur-level shoot and burn weddings here - I'm not in any way saying that true professional wedding photography takes little/no effort). If they're doing it by Craigslist or word of mouth on an "under the table" basis, there's no taxes, no overhead, just pure profit. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it would be a pretty tempting thought to somebody who suddenly finds themselves with no paycheck coming in to cover the bills that need to go out.


Mac
-Stuff I Use-

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Chet
my rates fluctuate
Avatar
43,201 posts
Gallery: 130 photos
Likes: 2067
Joined Sep 2007
     
Feb 28, 2012 21:39 |  #695

S.Horton wrote in post #13987281 (external link)
Ah.

It occurs to me that maybe photography is destroying amateurs. It is eroding at them, making them take grandiose flights of over commitment. Maybe they are like pet rocks. Popular today, thought to be a completely uninspired bad idea later.

Seems I brought this up long ago ...

https://photography-on-the.net …?p=13805969&pos​tcount=383

I stand by this as new aged camera's are making it harder for amateurs to suck.


Curator of the Bob's Pickle Emporium experience. -As always, One location to serve you better!
~Feel good today and donate to this great forum~ LINK
My Gear List

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
wuzzittoya
Goldmember
Avatar
2,551 posts
Joined Aug 2011
Location: rural Missouri
     
Feb 28, 2012 22:03 |  #696

Veemac wrote in post #13987495 (external link)
You make a good point, Sam. For an amateur/hobbyist photographer who has been laid off from their "real" job and has to pay bills & put food on the table somehow, it would be a strong temptation to pick up that camera they already have and try to make a few bucks with it to help make ends meet. I'm sure they'd be a lot less worried about "what they're doing to the profession of photography" than they would be about keeping a roof over their family's heads. Hauling down a few $300 shoot and burn weddings a month would yield them more money than working a 30-hour a week minimum wage job, with a lot less effort involved (remember, I'm talking amateur-level shoot and burn weddings here - I'm not in any way saying that true professional wedding photography takes little/no effort). If they're doing it by Craigslist or word of mouth on an "under the table" basis, there's no taxes, no overhead, just pure profit. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just that it would be a pretty tempting thought to somebody who suddenly finds themselves with no paycheck coming in to cover the bills that need to go out.

Especially if they can do it under the table without getting caught. If they have a family involved can you blame them? Yes, it is frustrating for an established pro competing in the same economy, but... wow. :(

I took this thread to heart because I want to make money selling my images as both prints and microstock. I envision no weddings and very little portrait photography because my disease makes scheduling things in advance and making commitments sketchy at best. This thread and its insinuation, that me wanting to make some money with my photography (mostly to start feeling a bit 'useful' again and to better afford my photography habit) is somehow wrong and going to destroy the industry really hit me hard and badly.

I certainly don't consider myself someone who woke up one morning and said, "Gee, all it takes to be a photographer is a camera and business cards, I'm headed to Best Buy." I've bought books on how to run a photography business, books that will help further refine my technique, better understand various photo editing software, etc. I refused to even consider taking pictures of people for hire until I upgraded my lenses and now there really is only one client lined up and they are more friends than clients (though they will pay me). I'm a regular at their restaurant - to the points where now their kids invite us to their table and discuss the coloring books, etc., that they are working in.

I respect photography. I don't plan to undercut the local pros (and since the remaining one seems to be exactly the kind of photographer that is complained about, I don't think I can - $20 for two hours of photography plus PP and the CD of all the images is really not even minimum wage - I think her weddings start at a couple of hundred). I have to even wonder if she is the reason the only local (as in in town - this woman is a half hour away) I know about has given up and sold off everything. :(

I don't think this "amateur" will destroy photography with any of her efforts, and certainly will do her best not to. I love art... I love it when images, or works that I create with my hands speak to other people. I've done painting, sculpture, poetry, short stories, novels and song-writing. I love to create and I love to share it. I hate the "tourist snapshot" type of pictures my husband loves - bad light, nothing compelling...

Like I've said time and again - I think that amateur is ill-defined in this. Possibly "photography" might even be poorly defined, too - is it the "art" of photography? the "business?" What part of the business? It has been pointed out that high-level pros couldn't care less about the person charging $20 per student for senior portraits. A well-established wedding photographer isn't really all that worried by the $200 weddings, even.

The biggest problem with this thread and its title is that it is too general to begin the discussion, making it easy for people to get upset by it, period. Then again, controversy most certainly contributes to a high comment count...


I like to push buttons on thingies that take pictures. Sometimes I like to push other buttons, too.
I only bite on the second Tuesday of every week, usually only mean people - they kinda taste like chicken...
You can call me Wuzzi

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Bear ­ Dale
"I get 'em pregnant"
Avatar
4,703 posts
Gallery: 8 photos
Likes: 271
Joined Mar 2009
Location: Australia
     
Feb 28, 2012 22:08 |  #697

wuzzittoya wrote in post #13987743 (external link)
I don't plan to undercut the local pros (and since the remaining one seems to be exactly the kind of photographer that is complained about, I don't think I can - $20 for two hours of photography plus PP and the CD of all the images is really not even minimum wage - I think her weddings start at a couple of hundred).

Honestly, at a starting point of $200 for a wedding.....how does she survive?


Cheers,
Bear Dale

Some of my photos featured on Flickr Bear Dale (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
wuzzittoya
Goldmember
Avatar
2,551 posts
Joined Aug 2011
Location: rural Missouri
     
Feb 28, 2012 22:30 |  #698

fotoworx wrote in post #13987769 (external link)
Honestly, at a starting point of $200 for a wedding.....how does she survive?

I don't know - when I saw that she was doing senior portrait shoots for $20 and that included a disk of the photos for them to print I wondered what on earth she was thinking, too. She's apparently been doing this for at least a year now. There was a local pro who did all the weddings, senior photos, athlete photos, etc. Last fall he quit. I'm guessing she is why. The only thing I can think is that she's probably married and doesn't care if she makes a lot doing it?

The other possibility is that she does a really bad job with post - the kid I'm doing shots for saw her slide show (she does a slide show of current seniors' portraits on "career day" then sits at a card table and corners all the kids she doesn't recognize and asks them when she is doing their pictures) said that her photo shop work was terrible. Or maybe she doesn't do post at all. He said one of the big things is she had backgrounds where shadows were going one way and the shadow of the student was the other way (which is poor lighting choices, not actually a post error). He made her sound like she really didn't have a lot of a clue.


I like to push buttons on thingies that take pictures. Sometimes I like to push other buttons, too.
I only bite on the second Tuesday of every week, usually only mean people - they kinda taste like chicken...
You can call me Wuzzi

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
20droger
Cream of the Crop
14,685 posts
Likes: 27
Joined Dec 2006
     
Feb 29, 2012 09:03 |  #699

S.Horton wrote in post #13986569 (external link)
Writers generally starve for income. I know a few.

With the advent of iBooks Author, everyone with a keyboard could be published.

They may make no money. But, they could be an author.

True. There are differences in the arts, however:

In photography, a real no-talent can spray and pray, and will occasionally get a wonderful shot. He then displays only the wonderful shots in his "portfolio." Just because he has a 1000:1 keep ratio is irrelevant.

In writing, a hack putting down more words remains a hack to all. You cant get by with an occasional good sentence, or even paragraph.

There are also similarities:

What constitutes a good photograph is highly subjective. The blurriest, technically crappiest image may win a Pulitzer, while a "perfect" image may be suitable only for selling postcards.

What constitutes a good book is also subjective. Steven King does not write literature. That it isn't saddens him so much that he cries all the way to the bank.

And yes, I was published. And paid. I made a quite decent living writing professionally. I'm no Steven King, but I didn't starve.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
S.Horton
worship my useful and insightful comments
Avatar
18,051 posts
Gallery: 7 photos
Likes: 117
Joined Dec 2006
Location: Royersford, PA
     
Feb 29, 2012 09:12 |  #700

smooth3000 wrote in post #13986541 (external link)
Are you really worried about the people charging $50 for portraits and $300 for weddings? Bottom line is, they're getting what they pay for. If someone appreciates your work, then they will be more than glad to pay for your services.

What you pros should be worried about is MWAC getting to the sales leads before you know about them. They're getting organized.

https://www.facebook.c​om …Clickin-Moms/144244264619 (external link)

I was amazed when I saw a poll hit my FB page asking whether or not I was a pro, aspiring pro, or advanced amateur, started by that group. And that group has over 65K members.

So far, the poll result is about 100/60/40 Pro/Aspring pro/advanced amateur, or 50% saying they are 'pro'. I got this poll because a person I know is in the group, and she voted 'Aspiring Pro working on her portfolio' -- She's got a 7D and a 70-200 II and perspiring is a better description than aspiring. But, it won't matter, she's popular and knows everybody.

That amounts to the crowdsourcing of the family / senior / formal / youth sports shoot and maybe a bit more.

I'll skip any full mention of the fact that even Astrologers want licensing.

Now, Roger, didn't you write the old testament?


Sam - TF Says Ishmael
http://midnightblue.sm​ugmug.com (external link) 
Want your title changed?Dream On! (external link)

:cool:

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Jimbers
Senior Member
333 posts
Joined Aug 2010
     
Feb 29, 2012 09:31 |  #701
bannedPermanent ban

steven king, while i've only read and enjoyed a few of his short stories, most certainly and assuredly, writes literature.

http://en.wikipedia.or​g/wiki/Stephen_King (external link)

20droger wrote in post #13989662 (external link)
What constitutes a good book is also subjective. Steven King does not write literature. That it isn't saddens him so much that he cries all the way to the bank.




  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
S.Horton
worship my useful and insightful comments
Avatar
18,051 posts
Gallery: 7 photos
Likes: 117
Joined Dec 2006
Location: Royersford, PA
     
Feb 29, 2012 10:55 |  #702

Adding fuel the fire are apps like this which, when combined with increasingly solid phone camera capture, really muddy the waters. Perhaps, soon, even the PWACs will get undercut by people with phones.

http://news.smugmug.co​m …tography-awesomized-free/ (external link)


Sam - TF Says Ishmael
http://midnightblue.sm​ugmug.com (external link) 
Want your title changed?Dream On! (external link)

:cool:

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Bosscat
Goldmember
1,892 posts
Joined Apr 2005
Location: Ontario Canada
     
Feb 29, 2012 13:14 |  #703

Bosscat wrote in post #13954451 (external link)
Still going.........not suprising though

I bet this one is still alive come March 1st

Wish I could guess lottery numbers like I nailed this one

Fact is, the people giving away or dime storing selling has hurt photography, because free always helps anyones bottom line, except the person giving it away.


Your camera is alot smarter than the "M" Zealots would have you believe

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
Amamba
Goldmember
Avatar
3,679 posts
Gallery: 8 photos
Likes: 50
Joined Nov 2007
Location: SE MI
     
Feb 29, 2012 14:09 |  #704

Jimbers wrote in post #13989810 (external link)
steven king, while i've only read and enjoyed a few of his short stories, most certainly and assuredly, writes literature.

http://en.wikipedia.or​g/wiki/Stephen_King (external link)

To each their own, I guess. Never considered King to be a good writer of "literature". But then I only read a few of his large books (that all started well but quickly descended into cheap grade teenage entertainment).


Ex-Canon shooter. Now Sony Nex.
Life Lessons: KISS. RTFM. Don't sweat the small stuff.
My Gear List (external link)

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
zincozinco
-Followers of Fidget-
Avatar
4,420 posts
Likes: 1
Joined Oct 2007
Location: Andalucía
     
Feb 29, 2012 14:44 |  #705

Just as people were paying the next door neighbours son to do their corporate websites, this is coming to an end soon. In the end its the result that matters. Some will be lucky others wont.


Living the life, overexposing...
Web (external link), Blog (external link) Name: Mike, Maik, Micke or just zinco.

  
  LOG IN TO REPLY
sponsored links
(this ad will go away when you log in as a registered member)

130,156 views & 0 likes for this thread
Are Amateurs destroying Photography
FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
AAA
x 1600
y 1600

Jump to forum...   •  Rules   •  Index   •  New posts   •  RTAT   •  'Best of'   •  Gallery   •  Gear   •  Reviews   •  Member list   •  Polls   •  Image rules   •  Search   •  Password reset

Not a member yet?
Register to forums
Registered members may log in to forums and access all the features: full search, image upload, follow forums, own gear list and ratings, likes, more forums, private messaging, thread follow, notifications, own gallery, all settings, view hosted photos, own reviews, see more and do more... and all is free. Don't be a stranger - register now and start posting!


COOKIES DISCLAIMER: This website uses cookies to improve your user experience. By using this site, you agree to our use of cookies and to our privacy policy.
Privacy policy and cookie usage info.


POWERED BY AMASS forum software 2.1forum software
version 2.1 /
code and design
by Pekka Saarinen ©
for photography-on-the.net

Latest registered member is MandeepNayee
812 guests, 296 members online
Simultaneous users record so far is 15144, that happened on Nov 22, 2018

Photography-on-the.net Digital Photography Forums is the website for photographers and all who love great photos, camera and post processing techniques, gear talk, discussion and sharing. Professionals, hobbyists, newbies and those who don't even own a camera -- all are welcome regardless of skill, favourite brand, gear, gender or age. Registering and usage is free.