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Thread started 02 Mar 2012 (Friday) 00:36
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Call it what it is - a 5D Mark 2.5

 
EL_PIC
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Mar 04, 2012 16:33 |  #166
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unclemat wrote in post #14020137 (external link)
The point is Canon was fully capable of including a better AF in 5D2 (or even 5D already) for marginal if any increase in cost. For example film EOS 3 (from 1998!) had AF that stomps on 5D/5D2's AF. Instead they chose to cripple it so to not compete with 1D series.

Unlike Nikon which could not include 21MP and killer video in D700, at least not without huge increase in cost.

This is very true.. But many here dont know Japan Culture. Many here never even been there.
Any one who knows Japan tech manufacture companies knows they keep 100 year Business Plans, 10 year product plans, and 5 year model development roadmaps.
They also know the roadmap of other competitors by way of supplier network
(Kyoryoku Kai = lean supply, it envoles marriage type relationship between members (you might be a bit surprizred but Canon and Nikon and other main photo companies are connected to each other}).
Canon just keeps moving alone with small tech steps and that is their roadmap.
What is being planned today will be what happens 5 years from now.
They are very good at Kyoryoku Kai and it rules business there.
Very hard to change the Japanesse method or mentality.


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Shadowblade
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Mar 04, 2012 22:06 |  #167

tkbslc wrote in post #14020854 (external link)
Okay, sure. But like I said, that's a discussion from 4 years ago. Canon did what they did back then. They decided that video would be their killer app and that they could get away with not improving the AF system. Judging from sales, I'd say it was not a bad call.

And regardless, what's that got to do with the 5Dmk3? It somehow will perform worse because the mk2 had wimpy AF?

The 5D2's features and performance is almost irrelevant in the current discussion. The 5D3 isn't competing against the 5D2. It's competing against the other recently-announced full-frame bodies from both companies. What matters is how it measures up against them, not how much it was improved from the previous model.

They included video i the D90 a few months after the D700. The D90 was $1000. And 21 and 24MP FF sensors were available when the D700 was released.

At that stage, Nikon didn't have any of those sensors. And the D700 sensor would have been designed well before the camera's release anyway.




  
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rexbobcat
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Mar 04, 2012 22:36 |  #168

It's so funny how people complain that the new cameras don't have all the best features, when they KNOW (hopefully) that integration of such features would drive the price to places they don't want it to be.

It's also funny how people who have been using the 5D MK2 for years love it until Canon announces its replacement and then they get up in arms. If you enjoyed the MK2, then you're going to enjoy the update since its basically the same camera only with more features.

Photographers have become so spoiled.

Why can't people be happy with what they get? I'm still using a 1D Mark II and I absolutely love it. And now I am anticipating the 1DX even though it is ONLY rated for 25k ISO. Only.




  
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Shadowblade
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Mar 04, 2012 23:07 |  #169

rexbobcat wrote in post #14024914 (external link)
It's so funny how people complain that the new cameras don't have all the best features, when they KNOW (hopefully) that integration of such features would drive the price to places they don't want it to be.

It didn't with the D800.

It combined great AF, build and weather sealing (D700 advantages) with resolution, IQ and video (5D2 advantages), then updated them to 2012 specs. Essentially, it's a 2012-model 1Ds3. With a price tag of $3000USD.

It's also funny how people who have been using the 5D MK2 for years love it until Canon announces its replacement and then they get up in arms. If you enjoyed the MK2, then you're going to enjoy the update since its basically the same camera only with more features.

Because, when you get an update for a camera known for it's best-in-class IQ (for its time), you expect the update to also have best-in-class IQ for its time. After all, that's why you bought it in the first place, instead of its rival camera which had much better AF and other features, but not as good IQ.

Doubly so when it seems that the competitor's successor has leapfrogged the 5D2's successor in resolution and IQ, while retaining its other benefits.




  
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pwm2
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Mar 05, 2012 01:05 |  #170

Shadowblade wrote in post #14025079 (external link)
It didn't with the D800.

It combined great AF, build and weather sealing (D700 advantages) with resolution, IQ and video (5D2 advantages), then updated them to 2012 specs. Essentially, it's a 2012-model 1Ds3. With a price tag of $3000USD.

So buy a D800 and begone.

Or are you fighting for the troll-of-the-year award already in early mars?

Because, when you get an update for a camera known for it's best-in-class IQ (for its time), you expect the update to also have best-in-class IQ for its time.

No. You don't expect. You hope. Because "expect" would be to assume that other camera manufactuers aren't interested in fighting for that position. And only fighting between camera manufactuers it what is driving progression.

After all, that's why you bought it in the first place, instead of its rival camera which had much better AF and other features, but not as good IQ.

But as noted already - it's irrelevant why you bought the 5D2 for a 5D3 debate.


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Shadowblade
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Mar 05, 2012 01:15 |  #171

pwm2 wrote in post #14025645 (external link)
So buy a D800 and begone.

Or are you fighting for the troll-of-the-year award already in early mars?

That's how you rebut an argument? I raised a valid point - the D800 is effectively an updated 1Ds3 with a Nikon mount. Or are you contesting that it's somewhat deficient in comparison?

No. You don't expect. You hope. Because "expect" would be to assume that other camera manufactuers aren't interested in fighting for that position. And only fighting between camera manufactuers it what is driving progression.

In other words, they screwed up and got beaten.

The line of cameras which has previously always had the best IQ in its league no longer does. With the minimal improvement we've seen so far, it's as if they didn't even try to compete.

But as noted already - it's irrelevant why you bought the 5D2 for a 5D3 debate.

It's completely relevant.

Still photographers bought into the 5D2 for IQ and resolution, not for anything else. In every other respect, it was a crap camera - slow, clunky, poor AF, poor weather sealing. But its IQ was superb, for its time.

A camera which doesn't improve significantly on IQ and resolution, when that was the main focus of its 'predecessor', isn't a true successor. At most, it's an update, being essentially what the previous model should have been.




  
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bionicle
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Mar 05, 2012 01:42 |  #172

Great news, I get to play with the 5DIII today....can't wait to get my grubby hands on it.


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Malsam
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Mar 05, 2012 01:54 |  #173

I believe a lot of people are not happy with how these companies are tuning out their product because its seems to me that there is an imbalance in terms of product differentiation between the 2 biggies i.e Canon and Nikon. As a marketer, I try to think this way....

Like i say previously, Canon did the business stuff appropriately and correctly - 5D3 really earns its name as a "Mark III". It upgrades the "II" in a lot of aspects, eg. better AF, FPS, video capabilities etc. It merely addresses to its predecessor direct flaws which is why its call 5D3. Its like patch 1.1 to 1.2. Its not 2.0! So I'm not blaming Canon for anything.

A lot of folks are comparing with Nikon or even Sony...but Nikon is not following the marketing like Canon. Its intention is to come out with a better model to D700 and not plain "updating" it. Which is why its not called D700x or D700 mark II! So in terms of marketing, comparing D700 to 5D or the marks of 5D make sense...but comparing 5D3 to D800 seems to arises a lot of complains.

I guess what most people are unhappy about is that there is isn't a 3D? A product that is a step up from the makes of 5D marks that can directly competes or even supersede D800 in terms of technology timeline. If you see how these companies do their product differentiation you will notice that they are trying their best not to create a direct competing models for consumers to switch. i.e Brand X apple is equivalent to Brand Y apple. If they continues to market in this way i.e top line have high FPS and moderate MP, mid line bodies have moderate FPS but high MP, Nikon immediately has a clear winner. I still believe a 3D is coming...just not sure when.

For those who are complaining, you could be like me....we are not "upgrading" to 5D3 because our 5D2 has 9X% of what we need. We want a better body. So our list would be the 1Dx or 3D (depends on the $$$).


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pwm2
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Mar 05, 2012 06:41 |  #174

Shadowblade wrote in post #14025688 (external link)
That's how you rebut an argument? I raised a valid point - the D800 is effectively an updated 1Ds3 with a Nikon mount. Or are you contesting that it's somewhat deficient in comparison?

I just see the debate irrelevant. You either like the 5D3 or you don't.

Since the 5D3 is not going to change, it's more relevant to debate what the 5D3 is - and is not - than to try to post again and again and again and again and again and again and again [you get the point] that you are not happy with Canon marketing decisions.

So if you are not happy with Canon decisions, and see the 1Ds3 is improved by the D800 but at a lower price than 1Ds3 or 5D3, then the natural step is to go get the D800.

If you do not want the D800, then it's better that you return back and debate the real strengths/weaknesses of the 5D3. And we don't even have all information yet. There are very few test photos. We don't know how good the weather sealing is - if it's similar to the 7D. We have seen too little data to know if it will have the banding problems the 5D2 did suffer from.

What we do know, is that Canon have upgraded the 5D3 compared to the 5D2 on every point people have complained the 5D2 was a bit short.

In other words, they screwed up and got beaten.

And this is exactly the sentence that says I'm right => Go get the D800 instead of wasting your time debating the 5D3 - you have, after all, already made the decision how much you do not like the 5D3.

The line of cameras which has previously always had the best IQ in its league no longer does. With the minimal improvement we've seen so far, it's as if they didn't even try to compete.

Switch to cars. Have you ever seen one car brand always have "the best" car? Have Noink for the last 100 years always had one step worse cameras?

Still photographers bought into the 5D2 for IQ and resolution, not for anything else. In every other respect, it was a crap camera - slow, clunky, poor AF, poor weather sealing. But its IQ was superb, for its time.

I do think more than one buyer bought it because it was full-frame at a seriously lower cost than 1Ds3...

A camera which doesn't improve significantly on IQ and resolution, when that was the main focus of its 'predecessor', isn't a true successor. At most, it's an update, being essentially what the previous model should have been.

The majority of cars released do not improve significantly, but are still true successors. Life isn't always revolution. Besides - lots of 5D2 owners would say the new AF system is a significant improvement.

And lots of wedding photographers would say the second memory slot is a significant improvement.


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RichSoansPhotos
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Mar 05, 2012 07:11 |  #175
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I do think that it has some strange features on the camera, like the ratings button, pfft, no good at all. You can't see the photos properly until you get home, so why bother with it?




  
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pwm2
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Mar 05, 2012 07:38 |  #176

400dabuser wrote in post #14026535 (external link)
I do think that it has some strange features on the camera, like the ratings button, pfft, no good at all. You can't see the photos properly until you get home, so why bother with it?

But if you shoot 1000+ photos in a single session, you may feel that some of them did get a movement or expression you want to quickly get back to later. Maybe a photojournalist wants to tag photos he is interested in getting in to the newspaper?

Hopefully, the software will allow this button to be reprogrammed with some alternative behaviour.


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Mar 05, 2012 07:53 |  #177

The sense I get is that some folks are just wowed by a big pixel count, and so the fact that the rest of the spec sheet is just about perfect is lost on them. These folks should just get a D800 if they cannot live with 22MP.

I have 20X30 prints made from just 10MP that do not lack for detail at all. To me the 5D3 is a more appealing camera than the D800.


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Mar 05, 2012 08:17 |  #178

pwm2 wrote in post #14013444 (external link)
The cost of weather sealing for a high end camera does not lie in any fifty cents for some rubber. It's in the thousands of hours of testing, modification, testing, modification, testing, ... that it takes until they are happy that all seams are working well and not wearing out or suffering from some skew issues from some mild abuse during the life of the camera. So unless they sell the camer in the millions, the cost is in R&D hours - not production costs. Ever wondered why the 1-series cameras are so expensive? You thought it was just production costs?

BS. Canon's Bodies have remained the same for many models already. If they've done it on one camera they should be able to do it on others. I seriously doubt much R&D is needed for simple weather sealing. It's not like its something completely new for Canon. I can understand thousands of hours for AF testing etc. But weather sealing? please.


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pwm2
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Mar 05, 2012 08:27 |  #179

JeffreyG wrote in post #14026676 (external link)
The sense I get is that some folks are just wowed by a big pixel count, and so the fact that the rest of the spec sheet is just about perfect is lost on them. These folks should just get a D800 if they cannot live with 22MP.

I have 20X30 prints made from just 10MP that do not lack for detail at all. To me the 5D3 is a more appealing camera than the D800.

With a Nokia phone with over 40Mpix, I think some people will feel threatened when a new DSLR has about half the pixel count.

Right now, I would prefer to see more information about actual image quality from the 5D3, instead of all the focusing of what Canon "should" have included.


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Mar 05, 2012 08:37 |  #180

JeffreyG wrote in post #14026676 (external link)
The sense I get is that some folks are just wowed by a big pixel count, and so the fact that the rest of the spec sheet is just about perfect is lost on them. These folks should just get a D800 if they cannot live with 22MP.

I have 20X30 prints made from just 10MP that do not lack for detail at all. To me the 5D3 is a more appealing camera than the D800.

WRONG. I have hardly seen any one complain about the pixel count. Its the images. Have you even looked at all the samples out right now? even video. THEY SUCK!


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Call it what it is - a 5D Mark 2.5
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